Soft proofing accuracy

Started by johnny_jay, June 11, 2014, 09:35:35 AM

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johnny_jay

We are currently using Kodak PressProof at press side for our 3 presses. Everyone is happy with the results 99% of the time. The color is fairly close. The problem comes up the other 1% when it is a higher end job with a press check. The monitors seem to have a slight cast in the paper white, some see it as a red cast, others just slightly dark.

Coated #5 is fine, #3 and #1 are the problems.

We have tried to adjust the white point and turn up the luminance but it has not solved the problem.

The monitors are never cleaned properly and that is not helping.

Our hard proofs are a much closer match and these use the same destination ICC profile.

Has anyone else had any similar problems?

When we first went to press proof, we had Apple 30" displays. The press room said these were much better than any thing we have had since.

Thanks for reading and I appreciate any thoughts to get us in the right direction.

John
Kodak Prinergy and InSite
Preps
Epson P7000 driven by Fiery XF
Screen 16000N
Screen R36000ZX
3 web presses, 1 sheetfed press
G7 Expert

frailer

Can't offer more than some random thoughts. I've never experienced presses being run to displayed colour; can only imagine it's a minefield. Though you seem to have travelled OK up to now.
Would think that display quality/nature would come into it. What sort of displays do you have at press-side? Are you saying that the 30"-ers were press-side, or in pp room?
If the current displays are cheaper TN ones, then I'd think you're pushing it once it's down to paper rendition.  :undecided:  Even Apple displays are/were not considered 'pro', really. Once upon a time Apple would not reveal whether their panels were TN, PVA, or IPS. Only later, when it suited them, did they crow about it, as prior to that it was random.
Probably TMI, but display quality/calibration just sprang to mind.
Forgotten good guys: Dennis Ritchie, Burrell Smith, Bill Atkinson, Richard Stallman
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Now just an honorary member.

johnny_jay

Kodak has a very short list of monitors that will work. There is 1 30" HP, 1 27" NEC, and several Eizos - Most are getting impossible to find, Kodak has not updated the list in a year.

Right now we have 3 HP's and the 27" Eizo. The Eizo is new but cannot achieve the Luminance of the older HP's.

I have attached the approved list.

I am going to contact Kodak as well and see what they say. I have a feeling it will be that since they are different technologies, it's as close as they can get.
Kodak Prinergy and InSite
Preps
Epson P7000 driven by Fiery XF
Screen 16000N
Screen R36000ZX
3 web presses, 1 sheetfed press
G7 Expert

frailer

OK, so they're higher-end. Surprised that an HP makes the list, but am guessing it's one of their more expensive ones. EIZOs tend to be PVA panels.. good for blacks and shadow detail, not much good for viewing angle latitude; need to view them within a narrow field. Usually not a problem for press use.
I like NECs.
have done a shedload of display research, but never been able to purchase one here. Does that make me some kind of wanker?   :undecided:   Don't feel obliged to answer.
Forgotten good guys: Dennis Ritchie, Burrell Smith, Bill Atkinson, Richard Stallman
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Now just an honorary member.

johnny_jay

Quote from: frailer on June 12, 2014, 05:10:03 PMave done a shedload of display research, but never been able to purchase one here. Does that make me some kind of wanker?   :undecided:   Don't feel obliged to answer.

Not at all, when your company is ready to pull the trigger, you will be up to date.
Kodak Prinergy and InSite
Preps
Epson P7000 driven by Fiery XF
Screen 16000N
Screen R36000ZX
3 web presses, 1 sheetfed press
G7 Expert

zacgil

Hey All,

I'm looking into doing away with our Coldset Press Proofs and getting into Monitor Proofing for the pressmen.  This will be for non Color-Critical jobs and our weekly/daily papers.  Joe, I know you mentioned that you are already doing this.  Any suggestions for TV/Monitors?  Or any words of advice before I start digging?  

Best,
I am a punky, sophisticated lesbian (or something similar).

Joe

We just got off-the-shelf 42" HD (1980x1024) TV's from Best Buy. I think they are Visio's. We originally set them up to view 600 dpi VPS proofs but oddly enough the pressmen didn't like viewing screened proofs even though that is what is coming off of the press so we changed it up to imposed PDF's they view with Acrobat Reader.
Mac OS Sonoma 14.2.1 (c) | (retired)

The seven ages of man: spills, drills, thrills, bills, ills, pills and wills.

Farabomb

Your pressmen know how to use acrobat reader?

I'm impressed.
Speed doesn't kill, rapidly becoming stationary is the problem

I'd rather have stories told than be telling stories of what I could have done.

Quote from: Ear on April 06, 2016, 11:54:16 AM
Quote from: Farabomb on April 06, 2016, 11:39:41 AMIt's more like grip, grip, grip, noise, then spin and 2 feet in and feel shame.
I once knew a plus-sized girl and this pretty much describes teh secks. :rotf:
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
         —Benjamin Franklin

My other job

Joe

Yeah, the PDF's are stored in a folder on their desktop so I trained them to open the folder and double click the PDF. Only took 2 months of training. :deadhorse:
Mac OS Sonoma 14.2.1 (c) | (retired)

The seven ages of man: spills, drills, thrills, bills, ills, pills and wills.

zacgil

Didn't like screened proofs? Craziness

I'll have to look into those TVs.  What I'm finding is that you just need to worry about Input Lag, Pixel Density, and Chroma Subsampling(not quite sure what this is but apparently you need the TV to be 4:4:4 capable..).  But, for what we are going to use it for I don't think we can really go too wrong.  Its not like we are going to be watching movies or playing games throug it....*fingers crossed*




I am a punky, sophisticated lesbian (or something similar).

Farabomb

Quote from: Joe on May 05, 2015, 11:43:26 AMYeah, the PDF's are stored in a folder on their desktop so I trained them to open the folder and double click the PDF. Only took 2 months of training. :deadhorse:

Watched one of the old school pressmen "accidentally" knock the new tracking computer off the table with a old roller a the old place.
Speed doesn't kill, rapidly becoming stationary is the problem

I'd rather have stories told than be telling stories of what I could have done.

Quote from: Ear on April 06, 2016, 11:54:16 AM
Quote from: Farabomb on April 06, 2016, 11:39:41 AMIt's more like grip, grip, grip, noise, then spin and 2 feet in and feel shame.
I once knew a plus-sized girl and this pretty much describes teh secks. :rotf:
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
         —Benjamin Franklin

My other job

Joe

Quote from: zacgil on May 05, 2015, 11:49:27 AMDidn't like screened proofs? Craziness

I'll have to look into those TVs.  What I'm finding is that you just need to worry about Input Lag, Pixel Density, and Chroma Subsampling(not quite sure what this is but apparently you need the TV to be 4:4:4 capable..).  But, for what we are going to use it for I don't think we can really go too wrong.  Its not like we are going to be watching movies or playing games throug it....*fingers crossed*

I'm not sure what any of that is but we got Gateway PC's running Windows Vista (in 2009) with an HDMI output port. A standard HDMI cable to the TV and it works.
Mac OS Sonoma 14.2.1 (c) | (retired)

The seven ages of man: spills, drills, thrills, bills, ills, pills and wills.

frailer

Gateway. There's a blast from the past.
Forgotten good guys: Dennis Ritchie, Burrell Smith, Bill Atkinson, Richard Stallman
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Now just an honorary member.

gig0

We tried the soft proofing route in the pressroom a couple of years ago. What a complete, utter, miserable failure that was thanks to industry buzzword fags.
Prinergy Evo <option 8> Colorproof XF <option 8> Epson 7800's (shut up) <option 8> Screen Platerite 4200 & Lotem 400  <option 8> Various Konica & OCE digital printers

Farabomb

It's obvious it can be done, you just need support of the pressmen.

A kegger during training will go a long way.
Speed doesn't kill, rapidly becoming stationary is the problem

I'd rather have stories told than be telling stories of what I could have done.

Quote from: Ear on April 06, 2016, 11:54:16 AM
Quote from: Farabomb on April 06, 2016, 11:39:41 AMIt's more like grip, grip, grip, noise, then spin and 2 feet in and feel shame.
I once knew a plus-sized girl and this pretty much describes teh secks. :rotf:
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
         —Benjamin Franklin

My other job