Different color profiles for different clients

Started by baker7, May 16, 2016, 10:47:49 AM

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baker7

Quote from: Tracy on May 23, 2016, 11:53:05 AMAt least your getting paid for it!

Your next prepress job you are going to think is easy :laugh:

Yeah, I guess I can't complain too much.  Not sure if there will be a next prepress job.  Unless I can find a place that can pay the same.  I think my boss wants to keep me for life at the rate he's paying me. 

Joe

Quote from: baker7 on May 23, 2016, 12:00:10 PM
Quote from: Farabomb on May 23, 2016, 11:29:35 AMWell I see one of 2 things can be done. Have a special profile just for this one customer's jacked up colors or your boss needs to nut up and tell the customer how it really is. If they want to continue to insist on the jacked up profile that "pops" they should be charged extra for the non-spec work.

I told my boss this awhile back and he's reluctant to fingerprint the CTP again for the special profile, probably because we have to do this for 3 new clients.  3 new profiles and fingerprinting. 

Also if we tell them their proof is unrealistic, they'll just go to another printshop and we can't let them go.. we're just barely hanging on here.  Sometimes I don't know how we're staying in business.

Well you would not have to fingerprint anything else. You already said your press matches your Mutoh. Give them your Mutoh profile and tell them to adjust the files so the proofs using your Mutoh profile on their Mutoh look they did before using their own jacked up profile. When that happens your Mutoh will match their Mutoh and the press will match your Mutoh which now is matching their Mutoh.
Mac OS Sonoma 14.2.1 (c) | (retired)

The seven ages of man: spills, drills, thrills, bills, ills, pills and wills.

Farabomb

Well, doing work at a loss just means the death will be prolonged.

Individual profiles for each customer? I've never heard of that. I understand wanting to keep customers but sometimes it's not worth it. We had one we bent over backwards, made impossible turnarounds and got it done. Then they went to another shop because they offered everything in-house then they tried not paying. Three years later and a lot of battling and chasing after them we got most of our money.

I'd let them bounce and they can go off and piss off another printer and you can be "the last place didn't have any problems with our files"
Speed doesn't kill, rapidly becoming stationary is the problem

I'd rather have stories told than be telling stories of what I could have done.

Quote from: Ear on April 06, 2016, 11:54:16 AM
Quote from: Farabomb on April 06, 2016, 11:39:41 AMIt's more like grip, grip, grip, noise, then spin and 2 feet in and feel shame.
I once knew a plus-sized girl and this pretty much describes teh secks. :rotf:
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
         —Benjamin Franklin

My other job

baker7

Quote from: Joe on May 23, 2016, 12:07:20 PMWell you would not have to fingerprint anything else. You already said your press matches your Mutoh. Give them your Mutoh profile and tell them to adjust the files so the proofs using your Mutoh profile on their Mutoh look they did before using their own jacked up profile. When that happens your Mutoh will match their Mutoh and the press will match your Mutoh which now is matching their Mutoh.

Is this possible?  I would think if we use different profile for our Mutoh we would have to fingerprint again for the press to match this change.  I wouldn't think the press automatically matches Mutoh's changes.  I'm wrong about this?

baker7

Quote from: Farabomb on May 23, 2016, 12:08:39 PMI'd let them bounce and they can go off and piss off another printer and you can be "the last place didn't have any problems with our files"

I guess this is the thing to tell new printers.  I am hearing this consistently from clients.

Joe

Quote from: baker7 on May 23, 2016, 12:43:23 PM
Quote from: Joe on May 23, 2016, 12:07:20 PMWell you would not have to fingerprint anything else. You already said your press matches your Mutoh. Give them your Mutoh profile and tell them to adjust the files so the proofs using your Mutoh profile on their Mutoh look they did before using their own jacked up profile. When that happens your Mutoh will match their Mutoh and the press will match your Mutoh which now is matching their Mutoh.

Is this possible?  I would think if we use different profile for our Mutoh we would have to fingerprint again for the press to match this change.  I wouldn't think the press automatically matches Mutoh's changes.  I'm wrong about this?

You would not be using a different profile. The customer should adjust their images so they print like they want on your Mutoh using your Mutoh profile.
Mac OS Sonoma 14.2.1 (c) | (retired)

The seven ages of man: spills, drills, thrills, bills, ills, pills and wills.

baker7

Quote from: Joe on May 23, 2016, 01:33:20 PMYou would not be using a different profile. The customer should adjust their images so they print like they want on your Mutoh using your Mutoh profile.

Yeah, we already tried that.  They won't do that because they give us files that have already gotten approved with their clients.  Also since they have their original profile, even though they have our profile the artists won't use it because it's easier to just use their existing profile because it's richer and more vibrant.  It's a no win situation.

Joe

As long as your boss lets them dictate the flow of the work you are stuck with what you have. If your boss ever decides to stop throwing money away though you know what has to happen.
Mac OS Sonoma 14.2.1 (c) | (retired)

The seven ages of man: spills, drills, thrills, bills, ills, pills and wills.

Farabomb

And let us know if that happens so we can all play the lottery.
Speed doesn't kill, rapidly becoming stationary is the problem

I'd rather have stories told than be telling stories of what I could have done.

Quote from: Ear on April 06, 2016, 11:54:16 AM
Quote from: Farabomb on April 06, 2016, 11:39:41 AMIt's more like grip, grip, grip, noise, then spin and 2 feet in and feel shame.
I once knew a plus-sized girl and this pretty much describes teh secks. :rotf:
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
         —Benjamin Franklin

My other job

baker7


Joe

One more thought on this...

You say on existing customers you make your proof on the Mutoh and your press matches it. Why don't you make these new customers files print the way they want it to print on your Mutoh. By that I mean why don't you make all of your corrections to these images before you make the plates? Then your press should match your Mutoh. It is just insane to be making corrections after the plates are made. Not to mention expensive.
Mac OS Sonoma 14.2.1 (c) | (retired)

The seven ages of man: spills, drills, thrills, bills, ills, pills and wills.

baker7

Quote from: Joe on May 24, 2016, 11:00:33 AMOne more thought on this...

You say on existing customers you make your proof on the Mutoh and your press matches it. Why don't you make these new customers files print the way they want it to print on your Mutoh. By that I mean why don't you make all of your corrections to these images before you make the plates? Then your press should match your Mutoh. It is just insane to be making corrections after the plates are made. Not to mention expensive.

Yeah it is insane.  I do make corrections before making the plate, but for lot of the jobs it comes out wildly different on the plate.  Yet for some jobs and existing customers it comes out exactly like the corrections made before the plate.  There's just no rhyme or reason nor consistency.  However, I think I found the culprit.  It's the harmony curve.  I went in there to try and see if I can adjust the magenta and yellow, main issue, and I see the curve is all below the linear line (if that's a word) forming a how would you describe it... like a curve on a skateboard quarter pipe viewed from the side.  Like the bottom right quarter circle. 

That isn't right, right?  After adjusting all these jobs with curves on photoshop, I think I understand now that a good curve should be like a S curve intersecting the linear slope.  Am I correct?  To do the linear plate, as you explained to me before from one of my first posts (which I didn't understand at the time) you mentioned that I need to "read it."

"I think you need to go back to the basics. First output a plate with a calibration scale on it. Do not use any plate or print (calibration) curve to output this plate. Read the dot percentages on the scale from that plate. A linear plate will give a reading that matches what is in the scale. +- 1% in the highlight, +- 2% in the midtone, +- 3% in the shadow end. If it is not linear you will need to go into Harmony and create a plate curve and enter the reading you got from the plate that you output. Save that plate profile. Now output the same plate again only this time apply the Plate curve that you created. Read the plate. It should now be linear."

Do I need to call a color guy with the plate measuring gadget to "read it?"  How do I read or measure it to achieve the linear plate?

I think this is why everything's been wacky since day one here at this place.

Thanks again, you are a life saver.  All you guys actually.

Joe

Sometimes you don't need a plate curve. You might be lucky enough that your plates come out linear with no curve at all applied.

To read the plate you need a densitometer that can read dot percentages. Any printing company should have a densitometer. You don't?

Once you have a linear plate, either one with or without a plate curve, you should probably want to create a print curve in harmony to account for dot gain in the press and this will also depend on the paper being used. An uncoated stock has more dot gain than a coated stock. Our plates read lower than the actual scale values after both our plate curve and print curve are applied.

But either your Mutoh matches the press or it doesn't. It doesn't make sense if some jobs do and some don't if all the plates are being output the same way (using same plate and/or print curves). It would not make a difference if the Harmony curves are screwed up or not. They should all come out the the same way. Do you use the same Prinergy process template to output all of the plates? If not are all of the process templates using the same calibration curves?
Mac OS Sonoma 14.2.1 (c) | (retired)

The seven ages of man: spills, drills, thrills, bills, ills, pills and wills.

baker7

Quote from: Joe on May 25, 2016, 12:53:32 PMSometimes you don't need a plate curve. You might be lucky enough that your plates come out linear with no curve at all applied.

To read the plate you need a densitometer that can read dot percentages. Any printing company should have a densitometer. You don't?

Once you have a linear plate, either one with or without a plate curve, you should probably want to create a print curve in harmony to account for dot gain in the press and this will also depend on the paper being used. An uncoated stock has more dot gain than a coated stock. Our plates read lower than the actual scale values after both our plate curve and print curve are applied.

But either your Mutoh matches the press or it doesn't. It doesn't make sense if some jobs do and some don't if all the plates are being output the same way (using same plate and/or print curves). It would not make a difference if the Harmony curves are screwed up or not. They should all come out the the same way. Do you use the same Prinergy process template to output all of the plates? If not are all of the process templates using the same calibration curves?

To answer your questions, no we don't have a densimometer, we hardly have anything that works properly here I don't think he'll spend the kind of money to buy one of those, ever.  And we use the same calibration curves for most of our jobs (the one we made in harmony that supposedly the color guy made measuring with that densitometer.) We tweaked it a little bit to color match better on press.  So this shouldn't be an issue.  We use same curve, same everything on Prinergy.  I don't know why there isn't consistency.  My suspicion is the files that we get from these new customers.  There's something wrong or different in how they made the art.  Also this is especially a problem when we tweak the colors a lot in photoshop (using curves).  It comes our looking very very close when printed in Mutoh.  But once we make the plates and run the press, whackjob.  That's why we use this to go back and tweak the colors and make another plate or two to match.

Should the callibration curve be a S curve that intersects the linear slope?  Our's is a quarter circle going up that fall below the linear slope (I think this is our problem.)  What is a Prinergy process template?  Is this a premade curve that comes with Prinergy?

Isn't calibration curve a print curve?  Just to clarify I've been using the calibration curve and applying changes properly in Prinergy after first several months of not knowing how to work it.  So this hasn't been an issue for the past 6 months.

Farabomb

My curve looks nothing like a S curve. A curve is more like a EQ where it pulls and pushes where needed to get to a target. If it was a S curve I'd think it would be really weak on one end and saturated on the other.
Speed doesn't kill, rapidly becoming stationary is the problem

I'd rather have stories told than be telling stories of what I could have done.

Quote from: Ear on April 06, 2016, 11:54:16 AM
Quote from: Farabomb on April 06, 2016, 11:39:41 AMIt's more like grip, grip, grip, noise, then spin and 2 feet in and feel shame.
I once knew a plus-sized girl and this pretty much describes teh secks. :rotf:
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
         —Benjamin Franklin

My other job