Spot Color over RGB picture set to Hard Light - not working

[pworden]

Hello! Just wondering if anyone has a solution for this. We received an InDesign file that has an RGB image with a spot color graphic – a chevron shape elements with varying screen values of the spot color, set to the "hard light" effect. Customer turned the spot to process in Ink Manager and we can see the effect he wants, but when the spot is turned to a spot, the effect doesn't work. 

Tried opening the RGB image in Pshop, adding a spot channel and a new layer. Put the graphic in the new layer in the spot channel and set the effect to Hard Light, but it doesn't look like it does in InDesign when all process – not even close.

I've attached screen shots. This has us stumped – we're thinking it just doesn't work and that the effect couldn't calculate with a spot color. We'll probably tell our customer that it has to be process. 

The spot appears as a spot further up the page, and the "match" to the graphic in question will only be as good as a CMYK match, which isn't close. In fact, we made a special formalized ink for this customer since they wanted something not possible in CMYK or as a choice in Pantone.  I've attached screen shots of what the customer wants and what we get.

Hoping someone out there has a solution that we just don't see.

Thanks!

[Joe]

Any chance of seeing the actual original PDF?

[pworden]

Here is a DropBox link to the first page with the problem. The link is an InDesign package and the PDF is included, but doesn't have the spot color enabled as a spot (customers do that a lot!).
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/0vh65vkkdokfcun/AADRXRDqjiveF7Gt1JIPLHvOa?dl=0

[Joe]

In Acrobat DC the PDF looks just like the InDesign document (CC 2015) which looks like the "what the customer wants" version in your screen shots.

Also I don't see any RGB images. The 4 color B&W image is CMYK. So where are you seeing what you see in the 2nd screen shot?

[Joe]

OK I see it looks like screen shot two if you output custom yellow as a spot.

[pworden]

OK I see it looks like screen shot two if you output custom yellow as a spot.

Right, and we have no good solution except set that "hard light" graphic to process. Are we missing something?

[Joe]

OK, I can make the spot to be transparent as a spot at output by changing the Hard Light value from 100% to something less depending on how much you want the photo below to show through. But the photo below is changing the custom yellow color appearance so you would probably need to adjust the values of the custom yellow until you get the desired color with the correct amount of transparency. Good luck with that.

[pworden]

OK, I can make the spot to be transparent as a spot at output by changing the Hard Light value from 100% to something less depending on how much you want the photo below to show through. But the photo below is changing the custom yellow color appearance so you would probably need to adjust the values of the custom yellow until you get the desired color with the correct amount of transparency. Good luck with that.

Thanks. I doubt we could get the color effect they want keeping the color as a spot there. We will proceed as process in just that area and let them know. The effect that happens with the hard light filter is nice, but just not happening with spot.

[swampymarsh]

It is a shame that "Designers" don't keep in mind that blending modes were originally created for use with RGB work and not CMYK or Spots. The blame should not be levelled solely with designers though, Adobe started this and should have an elegant solution to the issue. :]

Are you trying to turn this into a two colour job, say black and spot yellow only? Or will this print CMK+Spot swapping out yellow for say Pantone+ 109 C etc.

Attached is a 2 colour black and spot yellow low-res version that I believe achieves "my interpretation" of the info provided (which may be totally off base). This was achieved using PitStop Pro's great channel mapping feature, however any good prepress workflow system such as Prinergy also offers channel mapping.

EDIT: I now see in this case that the designer did not use a spot colour in the original file, so this is more of a prepress issue in meeting a client's expectation than with the original file? The key is to translate what works as a process colour into a spot colour.

[pworden]

Thanks; I like your solution. The job prints as CMYK+Custom spot ink (yellow). I talked to the designer this morning. He said his customer is super picky about the yellow, so if we use a process version on top of the picture (RGB as-is) to achieve his effect, they might reject it if the yellow doesn't match the hue of their special color. So... he is playing around with either removing the picture or something else.

I'll share your idea with him – he may go for it, but not sure. I'll also try to leave the image as RGB then channel map just the yellow to see how it looks – perhaps the image would remain more neutral.

Excellent work! Yes, it's amusing that a designer sees that what he's trying to do won't work as a spot color and just converts it to process thinking we'll work it out. Oh well – most of the time we do!

- Patti

[Farabomb]

I'm more amazed that a designer is working with you, instead of against you.

[Joe]

Thanks; I like your solution. The job prints as CMYK+Custom spot ink (yellow). I talked to the designer this morning. He said his customer is super picky about the yellow, so if we use a process version on top of the picture (RGB as-is) to achieve his effect, they might reject it if the yellow doesn't match the hue of their special color. So... he is playing around with either removing the picture or something else.

I'll share your idea with him – he may go for it, but not sure. I'll also try to leave the image as RGB then channel map just the yellow to see how it looks – perhaps the image would remain more neutral.

Excellent work! Yes, it's amusing that a designer sees that what he's trying to do won't work as a spot color and just converts it to process thinking we'll work it out. Oh well – most of the time we do!

- Patti

Keeping that yellow looking the way they want it is the problem as I explained above. Getting the effect of the color band overprinting the CMYK B&W photo is the easy part.

[pworden]

The designer decided to keep it as CMYK (no spot yellow) to keep the effect; apparently they used something like it on their booth display. He is explaining it to them to remove responsibility from him and us  We'll see how that goes!

[Tracy]

I'm guessing the booth display probably printed in CMYK too

[pworden]

Some inkjet inks, I'm sure. Definitely not their custom spot yellow!