Hey everybody --

Need some advice on our latest nightmare job...  


A longstanding customer is going to be changing the colors and layout of their business cards (as well as other things going down the road), and for the blue they want us to match, they emailed me a JPEG downloaded from some site that they generated a quickie business card sample from.

In Photoshop, I get the following values:
(RGB) R = 31, G = 105, B = 178
(CMYK) C = 88, M = 59, Y = 1, K = 0
Pantone Solid Uncoated = PMS 2935U
Pantone+ Solid Unocated = PMS 300U
Pantone Solid Coated = PMS 660C
Pantone+ Solid Coated = PMS 660C

But when I printed a color sample out on my Xerox 700 DCP and compared it against these spot colors, they don't look anything like the printed sample!  


From our Pantone Coated book, the closest visual match appears to be PMS 7462C.

From our Pantone Uncoated book, the closest visualmatch appears to be PMS 301U.

And to top it all off, the blue is going to be printed on 100 lb. Neenah Classic Crest Antique Gray Cover stock, which will further alter the blue's appearance... 

What's my best course of action?  Explain to the customer that not all screen colors are achievable as a Pantone match?  (Not to mention that due to monitor calibration differences, the blue he's seeing may not look like the same blue I'm seeing...)  Pick one of the above colors and hope for the best?

What would you folks do in my shoes??

Cheers, John the Fontaholic  


P.S.:  I can upload the JPEG sample he provided if anyone's interested...

Here is the offending blue in question...

looks like it's made from Reflex blue...

which there is no known screen combo.

What we would do in this situation is to run out a sheet from the actual output device with as many patches of different mixes (minor tweeks between the colors) and let the customer pick the one they like.

at least you will put the onus on them and save you a few brain cells.

What David said, but I would take it one step further. Because you're printing on grey stock and depending on the design, you will most likely experience a simultaneous contrast effect. Thats the optical illusion where the background/surrounding color alters the perception of the target color, so you'll want that surrounding your patches. I made a little visual for a customer awhile ago.

Have him come in and approve the final color. It's on colored substrate. No way it's going to match any book.

Quote from: Farabomb on February 11, 2015, 11:27:05 AMHave him come in and approve the final color. It's on colored substrate. No way it's going to match any book.

Run a double hit of opaque white under it? :/

Doesn't the Xerox have something that you can tell it that you're running it on colored stock so it can compensate? Not perfect, but it may get closer.

Of course, you can explain that anything they downloaded from the internet and sent you in a JPEG is not going to be really matchable in print.

If they can print out a copy on their own office printer, they can see the difference. They with a paper sample, do you have the deal in Command Work Station (if you've got a Fiery RIP) that lets you match colors by scanning it?

Tell him the news. Make a swatch on the Stock with 10 different color breakdown options. Ask him to make a choice!

RGB colour values are useless by themselves, you need a colour profile assigned to them to get a meaningful colour (Lab). sRGB is the assumed colour profile for mystery meat RGB. Once you have the Lab colour values for the RGB, you can then try to match the Lab colour values to a known Pantone Lab colour value. This is independent of the actual output/printing of the colour in question.

Quote from: swampymarsh on February 11, 2015, 04:11:19 PMRGB colour values are useless by themselves, you need a colour profile assigned to them to get a meaningful colour (Lab). sRGB is the assumed colour profile for mystery meat RGB. Once you have the Lab colour values for the RGB, you can then try to match the Lab colour values to a known Pantone Lab colour value. This is independent of the actual output/printing of the colour in question.

[Blank stare of incomprehension punctuated by occasional eye blinks, accompanied by cricket chirrups in background]

Swampy -- My shop doesn't work with Pantone Lab colour values at all, nor Pantone-Plus colour values if we can at all avoid it.

If you were to download the colour swatch I uploaded earlier upthread and assign the sRGB colour profile to it, what result would you get when matching the Lab colour values to a known Pantone Lab colour value?

Cheers, John the Fontaholic

Quote from: Fontaholic on February 12, 2015, 07:49:29 AM

Quote from: swampymarsh on February 11, 2015, 04:11:19 PMRGB colour values are useless by themselves, you need a colour profile assigned to them to get a meaningful colour (Lab). sRGB is the assumed colour profile for mystery meat RGB. Once you have the Lab colour values for the RGB, you can then try to match the Lab colour values to a known Pantone Lab colour value. This is independent of the actual output/printing of the colour in question.

[Blank stare of incomprehension punctuated by occasional eye blinks, accompanied by cricket chirrups in background]

Swampy -- My shop doesn't work with Pantone Lab colour values at all, nor Pantone-Plus colour values if we can at all avoid it.

If you were to download the colour swatch I uploaded earlier upthread and assign the sRGB colour profile to it, what result would you get when matching the Lab colour values to a known Pantone Lab colour value?

Cheers, John the Fontaholic 

Maybe you should leverage Lab where it is useful!

Colour management is there to help you (unless of course when it bites you in the arse).

Photoshop, create a new RGB document in sRGB colour space. Fill the foreground colour with the target RGB values. Click on the foreground colour of the colour picker in the toolbox, then click the Colour Libraries button. One is taken to Pantone Plus 660 C.

How does Photoshop know to pick Pantone 660 C as the closest colour?

31R 105B 178B (in sRGB) = 43L -2a -46b (this is a very pure/moderate blue, luckily it is within CMYK gamut)
Pantone+ 660 C = 51L -1a -47b (very close ab values, the lightness is the greatest difference)

(Note: positive ab values are warm, negative are cold. zero is neutral. Higher values are more intense/saturated.  a=red/green b=blue/yellow)

I'll spare you the ΔE values  :tongue:

Prefer CMYK? Just as with RGB, one needs to pair up an ICC profile with the values/numbers to reach a meaningful colour description.

Remember, the Lab target values are: 43L -2a -46b
If working in ISO Coated v2 / Fogra39 CMYK: 83C 55M = 44L 1a -44b (One can of course mix many different combinations of CMYK values that in theory create the same Lab colours).

Clear as mud?