I'm curious what others use for their uncoated curves. In truth, I've never used 2 curves - just one multi-purpose curve for everything (old shop used 1 curve for each press). Do you just pull the 3/4 tones and midtones down a bit to reduce the amount of ink being applied? I'm not looking to run a press test or anything.
Overkill here, we have curves for every color on every unit of every press for Coated, Matte and Uncoated paper.
For example, our 50% on Press A Cyan unit 2, Uncoated is set to 76 and the 50% for Coated is set to 62.9. These are used after the plate has been linearized.
We have two columns of curves, one that linearizes the plate and one that then puts the specific curve back in.
That seems backwards - shouldn't your coated stock take more ink? Or are the numbers telling you what your gain is?
For that unit we want to plate to read 56 for Caoted and 46 for Uncoated.
we either use an output curve or do a photoshop curve, depending on the stock, conventional or UV inks.
sometimes we do both, along with color manage.
We use FUM curves...
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(Farked Up Mess)
Quote from: Joe on June 29, 2011, 12:43:58 PMWe use FUM curves...
Ours have changed so often with new ink, new chemistry, new plates, and new paper that we now use FUBAR curves.
One for Coated and one for Uncoated that pulls back the mid & 3/4 tones about 8%.
We have a corresponding Uncoated curve for proofing.
We only do custom curves when we have to match another printers job or something we ran using our previous workflow/equipment.
Actually, we just run linear 100% of the time. But every time I have a changing condition (new batch of plates, new chemistry, clean processor, etc.) I recalibrate my plate media curve to ensure a true linear match.
Yeah, I've been running linear but I've been toying with using a curve for uncoated to back off on the ink a bit. I have one job in particular this week that is on uncoated paper and the photos are all a bit dark, and I don't want to mess with them individually (pure laziness on my part!) so I thought I'd experiment.
I was fortunate to have a couple of very large, picky clients. Bossman agreed to getting a color specialist in to fingerprint the presses. Bruce Bayne, from Alder Technologies. He has been my prepress Yoda for years and is a very cool guy to work with.
We first established the linear plate curve, so there was no variation in what was coming out of the processor. Then, ran a target sheet on multiple different line screens for all presses. Same as Stiv said, each unit has its own calibration. We run 133lpi on uncoated and 175 on coated. The heatset Cyan unit, for instance, images 50% as 38% on the plate... it actually prints 50% on press. It makes for awesome control and consistency... the pressmen can run to density and everything just falls into place to match proof and calibrated monitor. It took almost a week... cost a ton of cash, went through a lot of plates and spoil paper but the results are worth it, IMO. No more color fights between press and prepress.
It was a cool process too... Bruce had a laptop hooked to his densitometer at the press. He gave me a PDF that was a target. Had all sorts of color patches, slur, trap, etc... and his equipment would analyze it as it came off the press. He would then generate the curve set and we plugged it into the different, respective queues in the workflow. It was truly a fascinating process. Wouldn't want to try it myself tho. Bayne really knows his stuff.
Similar process here, only the guy's name was Lou Prestia. http://www.prestia.com/ (http://www.prestia.com/)
I did once try to go it alone and reprofile my 7880 with a different paper, and I couldn't get anywhere remotely in the ballpark for color.
Exactly. I know a fellow prepress OP, who is a very sharp operator, who tried it himself and it ended in frustration. Owner of his shop picked up an Eye-One and software from a place that was closing down. Ended up canning it and getting a specialist in to do it. The guys who do it for a living have higher end equipment and have spent as much time honing their craft as any other specialist. There is a reason they get paid big bucks to do it. http://aldertech.com/ (http://aldertech.com/)
Quote from: Earendil on June 30, 2011, 08:44:27 AMI was fortunate to have a couple of very large, picky clients. Bossman agreed to getting a color specialist in to fingerprint the presses. Bruce Bayne, from Alder Technologies. He has been my prepress Yoda for years and is a very cool guy to work with.
We first established the linear plate curve, so there was no variation in what was coming out of the processor. Then, ran a target sheet on multiple different line screens for all presses. Same as Stiv said, each unit has its own calibration. We run 133lpi on uncoated and 175 on coated. The heatset Cyan unit, for instance, images 50% as 38% on the plate... it actually prints 50% on press. It makes for awesome control and consistency... the pressmen can run to density and everything just falls into place to match proof and calibrated monitor. It took almost a week... cost a ton of cash, went through a lot of plates and spoil paper but the results are worth it, IMO. No more color fights between press and prepress.
It was a cool process too... Bruce had a laptop hooked to his densitometer at the press. He gave me a PDF that was a target. Had all sorts of color patches, slur, trap, etc... and his equipment would analyze it as it came off the press. He would then generate the curve set and we plugged it into the different, respective queues in the workflow. It was truly a fascinating process. Wouldn't want to try it myself tho. Bayne really knows his stuff.
Absolutely 100% the correct way to do it. And we don't here. :death:
Ya... I fought tooth and nail for over 3 years to get the approval for this operation. It finally came down to the big picky ones and our color not cutting it. Have a couple big jobs bounce because of color and minds start to change. I talked them into a new Epson 9900 with SpectroProofer attachment and an EFI XF, separate of my main RIP, just for color... and the fingerprinting and proofer calibration guru to come here for a week and dial everything in. Now, they are VERY happy they invested in the fingerprinting. Speedmaster and both webs are dialed in. Everything is controlled by the numbers... until it hits bindery. :laugh:
I'm still waging the battle. It's not looking good for my side though.
Quote from: Earendil on June 30, 2011, 10:22:49 AMYa... I fought tooth and nail for over 3 years to get the approval for this operation. It finally came down to the big picky ones and our color not cutting it. Have a couple big jobs bounce because of color and minds start to change. I talked them into a new Epson 9900 with SpectroProofer attachment and an EFI XF, separate of my main RIP, just for color... and the fingerprinting and proofer calibration guru to come here for a week and dial everything in. Now, they are VERY happy they invested in the fingerprinting. Speedmaster and both webs are dialed in. Everything is controlled by the numbers... until it hits bindery. :laugh:
How often do you check the press to make sure everything is still where you want it and that the press hasn't started to drift? Not exactly digital machines ya know?
Quote from: Joe on June 30, 2011, 10:15:17 AMAbsolutely 100% the correct way to do it. And we don't here. :death:
Yeah. What's a curve? :laugh: We just print the crap and out it goes.
Indeed. :rolleyes: We just got this system in and running at the end of last summer. I plan on updating once per year, though I would love to do it every 6 months as the seasons change.
I'm to the point where I can print the targets and mail them to the tech... he can email me the curves and I can plug them into the system. We are not perfect, but we are 100% better than b4. Even though the owner is happy with the result, he is old and it is hard to convince him of anything. In order to get another target and calibration, I will have to wait for him to go on vacation that way I can "waste" some paper, plates and press time running up another good target sample. We will blow 8 plates and a couple thousand copies on the web for the test.
Quote from: Earendil on June 30, 2011, 11:09:32 AMIndeed. :rolleyes: We just got this system in and running at the end of last summer. I plan on updating once per year, though I would love to do it every 6 months as the seasons change.
I'm to the point where I can print the targets and mail them to the tech... he can email me the curves and I can plug them into the system. We are not perfect, but we are 100% better than b4. Even though the owner is happy with the result, he is old and it is hard to convince him of anything. In order to get another target and calibration, I will have to wait for him to go on vacation that way I can "waste" some paper, plates and press time running up another good target sample. We will blow 8 plates and a couple thousand copies on the web for the test.
We have all the HW/SW to do it ourselves now, just got G7 master certified last month. I plan on doing it at least twice a year if not every quarter. I've seen these damn UV presses change overnight. :banghead:
Quote from: G_Town on June 30, 2011, 11:30:47 AMQuote from: Earendil on June 30, 2011, 11:09:32 AMIndeed. :rolleyes: We just got this system in and running at the end of last summer. I plan on updating once per year, though I would love to do it every 6 months as the seasons change.
I'm to the point where I can print the targets and mail them to the tech... he can email me the curves and I can plug them into the system. We are not perfect, but we are 100% better than b4. Even though the owner is happy with the result, he is old and it is hard to convince him of anything. In order to get another target and calibration, I will have to wait for him to go on vacation that way I can "waste" some paper, plates and press time running up another good target sample. We will blow 8 plates and a couple thousand copies on the web for the test.
We have all the HW/SW to do it ourselves now, just got G7 master certified last month. I plan on doing it at least twice a year if not every quarter. I've seen these damn UV presses change overnight. :banghead:
Ya, see... that's the thing, you have to go through the schooling and get certified to be able to do it. It's not one of those things you can just bang through on your own. Or, you hire someone to do it. The other bitch of a variable is getting the pressmen to not be assholes when you're printing the target. They have to run to the numbers or the test is crap.
Quote from: Earendil on June 30, 2011, 11:41:19 AMQuote from: G_Town on June 30, 2011, 11:30:47 AMQuote from: Earendil on June 30, 2011, 11:09:32 AMIndeed. :rolleyes: We just got this system in and running at the end of last summer. I plan on updating once per year, though I would love to do it every 6 months as the seasons change.
I'm to the point where I can print the targets and mail them to the tech... he can email me the curves and I can plug them into the system. We are not perfect, but we are 100% better than b4. Even though the owner is happy with the result, he is old and it is hard to convince him of anything. In order to get another target and calibration, I will have to wait for him to go on vacation that way I can "waste" some paper, plates and press time running up another good target sample. We will blow 8 plates and a couple thousand copies on the web for the test.
We have all the HW/SW to do it ourselves now, just got G7 master certified last month. I plan on doing it at least twice a year if not every quarter. I've seen these damn UV presses change overnight. :banghead:
Ya, see... that's the thing, you have to go through the schooling and get certified to be able to do it. It's not one of those things you can just bang through on your own. Or, you hire someone to do it. The other bitch of a variable is getting the pressmen to not be assholes when you're printing the target. They have to run to the numbers or the test is crap.
Yep and blankets, packing, pressures dot gain need to be optimal.
Quote from: G_Town on June 30, 2011, 11:54:40 AMQuote from: Earendil on June 30, 2011, 11:41:19 AMQuote from: G_Town on June 30, 2011, 11:30:47 AMQuote from: Earendil on June 30, 2011, 11:09:32 AMIndeed. :rolleyes: We just got this system in and running at the end of last summer. I plan on updating once per year, though I would love to do it every 6 months as the seasons change.
I'm to the point where I can print the targets and mail them to the tech... he can email me the curves and I can plug them into the system. We are not perfect, but we are 100% better than b4. Even though the owner is happy with the result, he is old and it is hard to convince him of anything. In order to get another target and calibration, I will have to wait for him to go on vacation that way I can "waste" some paper, plates and press time running up another good target sample. We will blow 8 plates and a couple thousand copies on the web for the test.
We have all the HW/SW to do it ourselves now, just got G7 master certified last month. I plan on doing it at least twice a year if not every quarter. I've seen these damn UV presses change overnight. :banghead:
Ya, see... that's the thing, you have to go through the schooling and get certified to be able to do it. It's not one of those things you can just bang through on your own. Or, you hire someone to do it. The other bitch of a variable is getting the pressmen to not be assholes when you're printing the target. They have to run to the numbers or the test is crap.
Yep and blankets, packing, pressures dot gain need to be optimal.
Yep and pressmen love it :sarcasm: when you tell them you are going to run a test patch and ask them questions about blankets, packing, pressure, etc...
Quote from: Earendil on June 30, 2011, 12:54:57 PMQuote from: G_Town on June 30, 2011, 11:54:40 AMQuote from: Earendil on June 30, 2011, 11:41:19 AMQuote from: G_Town on June 30, 2011, 11:30:47 AMQuote from: Earendil on June 30, 2011, 11:09:32 AMIndeed. :rolleyes: We just got this system in and running at the end of last summer. I plan on updating once per year, though I would love to do it every 6 months as the seasons change.
I'm to the point where I can print the targets and mail them to the tech... he can email me the curves and I can plug them into the system. We are not perfect, but we are 100% better than b4. Even though the owner is happy with the result, he is old and it is hard to convince him of anything. In order to get another target and calibration, I will have to wait for him to go on vacation that way I can "waste" some paper, plates and press time running up another good target sample. We will blow 8 plates and a couple thousand copies on the web for the test.
We have all the HW/SW to do it ourselves now, just got G7 master certified last month. I plan on doing it at least twice a year if not every quarter. I've seen these damn UV presses change overnight. :banghead:
Ya, see... that's the thing, you have to go through the schooling and get certified to be able to do it. It's not one of those things you can just bang through on your own. Or, you hire someone to do it. The other bitch of a variable is getting the pressmen to not be assholes when you're printing the target. They have to run to the numbers or the test is crap.
Yep and blankets, packing, pressures dot gain need to be optimal.
Yep and pressmen love it :sarcasm: when you tell them you are going to run a test patch and ask them questions about blankets, packing, pressure, etc...
We have a form they have to fill out documenting about 20 things on the press like conductivity, pressures etc...I love the look they give me when I hand it to them and ask them to fill it out :dev2:
Ya, like it's personal or something. :rolleyes:
yeah, for them it's writing down what they did to jack up the press sheet.
"No, we didn't do anything, we just inked up and it looks like this"... BS
We had a test form on, that got pulled to do color edits, new plates put on and they couldn't get the color right, so pulled second set of plate, more retouching...
long story short, Op Manager told them to put the fist set of plates back on and come back to where they were originally, guess what, couldn't do it to save their lives.
duh
Retards. It's establishing the curves... the one time to STFU and just do it by the book.
go ask them what standard densities are...
they give you some kind of quizzical look like "what planet are you from?".
A couple weeks ago, pressman comes up with a pull and was saying he needed new plates because he couldn't match the proof. I went out there with the boss to look. I told him to get his densities up to at least the ballpark. He said, "they're close enough". I looked at the color bar and said, "your yellow looks like it's in the mid 30s, man, put some ink on the sheet". He says, "you don't know what you're talking about, my yellow is in the 80s, we need a new plate". I said, "humor me and measure density on that yellow". He said "no". Boss told him to do it... it read 39. :shocked: Bossman was PISSED. I just went back up front to avoid the ensuing shitstorm. No new plates were needed.
:laugh: :salute: :uptonogood:
it's never the pressman. It's ALWAYS plates.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, I need to have some shirts made up that say "BLAME PREPRESS" :deadhorse:
It's the diodes in the platesetter, man! :banghead:
check the laser intensity, I think number 23 is shooting low...
Quote from: david on June 30, 2011, 02:36:53 PMcheck the laser intensity, I think number 23 is shooting low...
no I took number 23 out, I had a dead tail light bulb and didn't want to get a ticket on my way home the other day.
then check the radar range, what's your vector, Victor?
Quote from: Earendil on June 30, 2011, 01:23:43 PMA couple weeks ago, pressman comes up with a pull and was saying he needed new plates because he couldn't match the proof. I went out there with the boss to look. I told him to get his densities up to at least the ballpark. He said, "they're close enough". I looked at the color bar and said, "your yellow looks like it's in the mid 30s, man, put some ink on the sheet". He says, "you don't know what you're talking about, my yellow is in the 80s, we need a new plate". I said, "humor me and measure density on that yellow". He said "no". Boss told him to do it... it read 39. :shocked: Bossman was PISSED. I just went back up front to avoid the ensuing shitstorm. No new plates were needed.
:laugh: :salute: :uptonogood:
That's the pisser aint it, they can completely fcuk up a job and make us "fix" it but if we should have a minor issue it's the end of the world.
I still have to make plates over because "they don't fit" according to the pressman, they don't fit? This aint 1985 dude.
Seriously? They don't try the "doesn't fit" bullshit anymore around here. Mostly because when they did, I took out a ruler, measured, told the pressman to look real close and when he did, I SMASHED HIS FACE INTO THE LIGHT TABLE and screamed THIS... IS... SPARTAAAAAA! :cheesy:
Quote from: Earendil on June 30, 2011, 02:53:48 PMSeriously? They don't try the "doesn't fit" bullshit anymore around here. Mostly because when they did, I took out a ruler, measured, told the pressman to look real close and when he did, I SMASHED HIS FACE INTO THE LIGHT TABLE and screamed THIS... IS... SPARTAAAAAA! :cheesy:
At my old company I had people that understood this isn't a misomex, here it's still all voodoo, actually had an old pressman (been here since the middle ages) say "digital bullshit" to me in response to an issue he was having. I just shook my head and walked away.
Quote from: G_Town on June 30, 2011, 02:58:08 PMQuote from: Earendil on June 30, 2011, 02:53:48 PMSeriously? They don't try the "doesn't fit" bullshit anymore around here. Mostly because when they did, I took out a ruler, measured, told the pressman to look real close and when he did, I SMASHED HIS FACE INTO THE LIGHT TABLE and screamed THIS... IS... SPARTAAAAAA! :cheesy:
At my old company I had people that understood this isn't a misomex, here it's still all voodoo, actually had an old pressman (been here since the middle ages) say "digital bullshit" to me in response to an issue he was having. I just shook my head and walked away.
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: "voodoo". I get that shit too. I play it tho. Boss asked me what was wrong with the platesetter one day and I told him it was the 60amp Hemostatic Transmitifyer and to give me some space "in case she blew". He gave a concerned, puzzled look and ambled off. Whatamaroon
Quote from: Earendil on June 30, 2011, 03:04:52 PMQuote from: G_Town on June 30, 2011, 02:58:08 PMQuote from: Earendil on June 30, 2011, 02:53:48 PMSeriously? They don't try the "doesn't fit" bullshit anymore around here. Mostly because when they did, I took out a ruler, measured, told the pressman to look real close and when he did, I SMASHED HIS FACE INTO THE LIGHT TABLE and screamed THIS... IS... SPARTAAAAAA! :cheesy:
At my old company I had people that understood this isn't a misomex, here it's still all voodoo, actually had an old pressman (been here since the middle ages) say "digital bullshit" to me in response to an issue he was having. I just shook my head and walked away.
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: "voodoo". I get that shit too. I play it tho. Boss asked me what was wrong with the platesetter one day and I told him it was the 60amp Hemostatic Transmitifyer and to give me some space "in case she blew". He gave a concerned, puzzled look and ambled off. Whatamaroon
Yeah/ It probably needs a new Johnson rod. Gotta have one of those.
Quote from: DigiCorn on June 30, 2011, 03:08:51 PMIt probably needs a new Johnson rod. Gotta have one of those.
Duh. That's usually the part that blows. :rolleyes:
I did this once.
Made plates lin
Set up linear test plate with screens set up along each ink key. 2% 5% 10% 25 30 40 50 60 75 80 90 95 98 100%
Had press man run to density standard they liked. (have to please them a little. but obviously told them run a tad stronger.)
I took dot gain readings for uncoated and coated (they changed density reading for each stock)
My goal was:
18% for Black at the 50
16% for the Cyan at the 50
15% for both Magenta and Yellow.
I applied my adjustment curve for coated and uncoated for each color. done everything looked great till the sold all the equipment. :)
As for having everything perfect on press... who has a press that changes blankets everyday.