I am researching an issue that popped up with a couple of files and want to get some expert input. I have two different files supplied by the customer that has a CMYK swatch with the build of 72,91,38,28. As far as I can see, there is nothing special with this swatch in either document.
We had a customer requested change to these files. Nothing to do with color. In both of these files, the color build "mysteriously" changed to build 76.078, 94.118, 38.824, 45.098 in both of the Indesign documents. Quite the color shift. The operator that did the changes says he did not change the color, has no clue how it changed, and can recreate the issue.
I only know of two ways for a swatch to change. A script or opening the swatch and changing the colors. Are there other ways? Maybe keyboard shortcuts, or the eyedropper, anything? I don't want to think that the operator did it and is just denying it, but I can not reconcile this happening in two separate documents, to the same swatch color, without it being on purpose.
Sounds like color management is being applied?
Quote from: pabney on September 13, 2018, 07:57:09 AMI am researching an issue that popped up with a couple of files and want to get some expert input. I have two different files supplied by the customer that has a CMYK swatch with the build of 72,91,38,28. As far as I can see, there is nothing special with this swatch in either document.
We had a customer requested change to these files. Nothing to do with color. In both of these files, the color build "mysteriously" changed to build 76.078, 94.118, 38.824, 45.098 in both of the Indesign documents. Quite the color shift. The operator that did the changes says he did not change the color, has no clue how it changed, and can recreate the issue.
I only know of two ways for a swatch to change. A script or opening the swatch and changing the colors. Are there other ways? Maybe keyboard shortcuts, or the eyedropper, anything? I don't want to think that the operator did it and is just denying it, but I can not reconcile this happening in two separate documents, to the same swatch color, without it being on purpose.
So what is he doing when the change occurs when he recreates the issue?
Adjustment layers? Transparency changes? Yeah and never discount CM. Is his CM settings different than anyone elses?
Sorry, that should have been can not recreate the issue. In my haste to figure this out, I missed a VERY important word.
Are the swatches originally built as Spot colors? Is the file being opened in the same InDesign version? If someone creates a file in an older version that doesn't use LAB, it could possibly change if opened in the latest ID, but only if the colors in question are based on swatch libraries.
Is the swatch being added by a linked vector graphic?
The swatch is built in Indesign, not from a linked graphic.
It is built as CMYK, not as a spot that is getting converted.
It is being opened in the same version of Indesign.
If I have the operator open the original file from the customer, and redo the changes, the swatch does not change.
Check his color management in the program that made the PDF. If he is using something else, like GRACoL or something, a build/spot built in a different color space is going to change. I tried to do this in our shop a couple years ago when I got this great idea to change our entire CC colormanegment on all programs to use GRACoL since our RIP does, I thought it would be easier to see what it does up front. I was very wrong. Since most of our customers use the Adobe default settings, builds that were say 3 color builds, were coming out 4 color and "looked the same on screen" but were very different in print. I went back to the defaults.
Quote from: pabney on September 13, 2018, 10:30:23 AMThe swatch is built in Indesign, not from a linked graphic.
It is built as CMYK, not as a spot that is getting converted.
It is being opened in the same version of Indesign.
If I have the operator open the original file from the customer, and redo the changes, the swatch does not change.
Just re-read this. Maybe the customer applied a device link profile when exporting the PDF? Would that change it?
The supplier of the file is lying. He changed it.
I think there is some confusion. It is not that the pdf is different (although it is). It is that the Indesign swatch itself is different.
I even looked via applescript and the two swatches have the same ID. So the original swatch did not get replaced. It got changed.
The change did not happen from a customer, but from one of my employees who claims it happened by itself.
Did he get any messages about Transparency Blend Space when he opened the document?
[attach width=400]18984[/attach]
Was the original swatch setup as "Process" and "CMYK" like this and if so was it still this way after the values changed?
[attach width=400]18986[/attach]
No warnings at all. In fact this was the third change to the file. The other two where done by other employees, and everything was fine the swatch did not change when they worked on the file. In fact, when the employee in question redid the change from correction 2 to 3 the swatch did not change.
The colors where built as 4/c like your screenshot before and after. Here is a link that will download the Indy files before (change 2) and after (change 3). I had to remove the content, but did not mess with the swatches.
http://files.emprinting.com/_tkqIcCYt1BkM5R
OK, David Blatner just got back to me. If you open the document with the correct swatch, then go to edit->convert to profile, it will change the colors in the pallet. I just tried this, and I get the same color values as the wrong file. So this looks like what happened. However, this brings up a dialog box that has to be ok'd. The operator claims that nothing like this happened.
The struggle continues.
Glad you found a solution. I was thinking that perhaps you or the customer had an ICC profile applied in Bridge that was changing the profile.
Although I found what I believe to have happened. This still requires a menu selection (no default keyboard shortcut) and a dialog which has to be ok'd. So I still don't know how this could happen without the operator knowing it.
Yes definitely "edit->convert to profile" will change color values. I see of no way someone can do this 'accidentally'.
I don't like to call anyone a liar but your employee is a prime suspect at this point. Check out the Convert to Profile dialog box from the original document and the same one for the wrong document.
[attach width=400]18990[/attach][attach width=400]18992[/attach]
See the difference for the Source Space for both RGB and CMYK.
Actually I have found that if the color settings are set to convert to color space, AND ask when opening are not checked, then this can happen without a dialog box. The first time a small dialog opens, but it has the option to "do not display again"
That being said, I have an applescript in the Indesign start up folder that checks to ensure these settings are correct, and if not to fix it. So even without the dialog box, this should not happen without going into the color settings and changing them.
Well the source space for each document is different. Somewhere along the way it got changed.
Why are the modification dates so whacked on both of your InDesign documents? Original is May 27, 2097 and the Wrong is Apr 21, 1986.
Having the date wrong on a computer can wreak havoc in a lot of strange ways.
[attach width=400]18994[/attach]
Not sure why they are showing up that way. Not that way here.
Quote from: Joe on September 13, 2018, 12:54:03 PMI don't like to call anyone a liar but your employee is a prime suspect at this point. Check out the Convert to Profile dialog box from the original document and the same one for the wrong document.
[attach width=400]18990[/attach][attach width=400]18992[/attach]
See the difference for the Source Space for both RGB and CMYK.
Joe's Columbo'n it :laugh:
Oh, there is just one more thing...
October 9th is Columbo day
8) 8)
Quote from: Tracy on September 13, 2018, 01:45:30 PMQuote from: Joe on September 13, 2018, 12:54:03 PMI don't like to call anyone a liar but your employee is a prime suspect at this point. Check out the Convert to Profile dialog box from the original document and the same one for the wrong document.
[attach width=400]18990[/attach][attach width=400]18992[/attach]
See the difference for the Source Space for both RGB and CMYK.
Joe's Columbo'n it :laugh:
I think we need to bring that prepress operator in for questioning! :D
Just a couple more questions sir! :laugh:
Quote from: Columbo on September 13, 2018, 03:43:34 PMAnd THAT, sir.... would give me GREAT PLEASURE INDEED, Sir!