...about what actually happens when you crop the Media Box. Was always under the impression that once Cropped, all extraneous bits of the PDF were...gone.
I had to do a dirty fix-up sticker for type error in one of our customers' programs. (Black type on paper). OK, extracted page from doc, did type fix, worked out finished size of sticker, Cropping Tool>media Box>size it>crop>Save As. Impose in XMF. But after Exporting the 12-up sticker PDF from XMF for send-out proof, I noticed that under Wire-Frame view, there's otherwise-unseen stuff there from the page content on each placed (Cropped) PDF.
Why is that stuff still there? And if I were to Place that Cropped PDF in Indy, and reExport before bringing into XMF, would it still be there?
Maybe, no matter what, that hidden data is always there on a Cropped job. Just curious.

You can make it gone exporting from InDesign.
There may be a checkbox - crop image data to frame
(or something like that)
on export.

MSD

Quote from: WharfRat on October 07, 2010, 05:14:42 AMYou can make it gone exporting from InDesign.
There may be a checkbox - crop image data to frame
(or something like that)
on export.

MSD

Yep, it's in the PDF export dialog box, I believe the "general" tab but I don't have it open in front of me.

Yea, what they said.

You've got the:
Media box - defines the actual page size of the PDF (11 x 17)
Art box - defines the area in which all of the points of the art occupies
Bleed box - defines the bleed area
Trim box - defines the trim size of the art
Crop box - defines what you see.

Normally the art, bleed and trim boxes occur inside the media box. The crop box is usually the same size as the media box, but not necessarily required to. The crop box may be 3.5 x 2 inches in size and have a LL coordinate of 6, 6 (six inches up from the bottom and six inches to the right). In which case all you would see is 3.5 x 2. Any data beyond the 3.5 x 2 area is still there, you just don't see it.

You can change the media box to be 3.5 x 2 at the coordinate 6,6 and all the other data outside that region still exists. It is simply not seen.

Similarly with images you can tell InDesign to crop image data to frames. This will remove all the unused image data beyond the picture box (hard cropping). If you do not select crop image data to frame then all the image data can be included (soft cropping).

There are fixes in PitStop and pdfToolbox that allow you to remove objects that lay completely outside of a give region or page box. I can't remember which one but one of them does this but there is a fix to allow you to apply hard cropping to soft cropped areas. Maybe it's Elpical Claro, I'll have to double check.

But the main point is that just because it is no longer visible (from the crop or media boxes) doesn't mean that it's not there. It's there until someone takes action to remove the data. All these page boxes can be redefined into new areas that have nothing to do with the art itself.

In case anyone has been missing the cropping tool that was in Pitstop 7.x it is well hidden in Pitstop 9 here:



I know in Pitstop 7 you could click a box to "remove all objects outside the bleed" but I don't see it in this screen shot and don't have Pitstop 9 here at home to look at.

Quote from: mattbeals on October 07, 2010, 08:21:01 AMYou've got the:
Media box - defines the actual page size of the PDF (11 x 17)
Art box - defines the area in which all of the points of the art occupies
Bleed box - defines the bleed area
Trim box - defines the trim size of the art
Crop box - defines what you see.

Normally the art, bleed and trim boxes occur inside the media box. The crop box is usually the same size as the media box, but not necessarily required to. The crop box may be 3.5 x 2 inches in size and have a LL coordinate of 6, 6 (six inches up from the bottom and six inches to the right). In which case all you would see is 3.5 x 2. Any data beyond the 3.5 x 2 area is still there, you just don't see it.

You can change the media box to be 3.5 x 2 at the coordinate 6,6 and all the other data outside that region still exists. It is simply not seen.

Similarly with images you can tell InDesign to crop image data to frames. This will remove all the unused image data beyond the picture box (hard cropping). If you do not select crop image data to frame then all the image data can be included (soft cropping).

There are fixes in PitStop and pdfToolbox that allow you to remove objects that lay completely outside of a give region or page box. I can't remember which one but one of them does this but there is a fix to allow you to apply hard cropping to soft cropped areas. Maybe it's Elpical Claro, I'll have to double check.

But the main point is that just because it is no longer visible (from the crop or media boxes) doesn't mean that it's not there. It's there until someone takes action to remove the data. All these page boxes can be redefined into new areas that have nothing to do with the art itself.

I thought that when cropping using Media Box, I was doing that. Apparently, not so. Must dig around and see if there's an unchecked button somewhere.   :undecided:  Ideally, I want it gone in all cases, though it's not a show stopper.
The reason I bothered to look at Wire Frame was that I couldn't explain why the file was 6.7MB. which meant slightly too big for our pathetic email attachment limit. But when I Optimised it in A9 to bring file size down, it went to about 450KB. So, in that case, I'd reckon A9 was getting rid of stuff outside each Media Box. Just a hunch.

Oh yeah, Joe. No 'Cropping' to be seen in there. You are now 'Editing'.    :police:    :laugh:

Are you using the Acrobat cropping tool or Pitstop? Acrobat states in their help file "Cropping does not reduce file size because information is merely hidden, not discarded."

When I Optimised, I was using Acrobat. But maybe, with the custom setting I'm using, it's ressing the (single/mono) pic down on each page.
Shall check out WireFrame on the Optimised one when up there today (it's 0600 here).
And yes, Cropping, initially in PSP 7, with Crop Tool.

Quote from: frailer on October 07, 2010, 01:03:09 PMWhen I Optimised, I was using Acrobat. But maybe, with the custom setting I'm using, it's ressing the (single/mono) pic down on each page.
Shall check out WireFrame on the Optimised one when up there today (it's 0600 here).
And yes, Cropping, initially in PSP 7, with Crop Tool.

In that case, there is a checkbox to "remove all objects outside of bleed box" in the PSP 7 cropping tool dialog box.

Quote from: Joe on October 07, 2010, 01:05:59 PM

Quote from: frailer on October 07, 2010, 01:03:09 PMWhen I Optimised, I was using Acrobat. But maybe, with the custom setting I'm using, it's ressing the (single/mono) pic down on each page.
Shall check out WireFrame on the Optimised one when up there today (it's 0600 here).
And yes, Cropping, initially in PSP 7, with Crop Tool.

In that case, there is a checkbox to "remove all objects outside of bleed box" in the PSP 7 cropping tool dialog box.

Full circle. And I thought I was doing that all along.   :laugh:    One little checkbox.  Is there the equivalent in your newly found Edit Page Boxes in PSP9?   :undecided:

Try these for PitStop Pro, Acrobat Pro and pdfToolbox.

Quote from: frailer on October 07, 2010, 01:10:33 PM

Quote from: Joe on October 07, 2010, 01:05:59 PM

Quote from: frailer on October 07, 2010, 01:03:09 PMWhen I Optimised, I was using Acrobat. But maybe, with the custom setting I'm using, it's ressing the (single/mono) pic down on each page.
Shall check out WireFrame on the Optimised one when up there today (it's 0600 here).
And yes, Cropping, initially in PSP 7, with Crop Tool.

In that case, there is a checkbox to "remove all objects outside of bleed box" in the PSP 7 cropping tool dialog box.

Full circle. And I thought I was doing that all along.   :laugh:    One little checkbox.  Is there the equivalent in your newly found Edit Page Boxes in PSP9?   :undecided:

I don't know for sure. I don't have it at home to look at it. Will check later today.

1st pic, as Cropped in PSP>media Box, but presumably button unchecked, as per Joe's mention above.
2nd pic, as brought in after Matt's EAL.

This all in A7/PSP7. Still wrapping the mind around 9, and it's 10 time.   :rolleyes:  All achievable in there as well, I guess, just differently.

...and thanks for that EAL, Matt.   :cool:

Quote from: frailer on October 07, 2010, 01:10:33 PM

Quote from: Joe on October 07, 2010, 01:05:59 PM

Quote from: frailer on October 07, 2010, 01:03:09 PMWhen I Optimised, I was using Acrobat. But maybe, with the custom setting I'm using, it's ressing the (single/mono) pic down on each page.
Shall check out WireFrame on the Optimised one when up there today (it's 0600 here).
And yes, Cropping, initially in PSP 7, with Crop Tool.

In that case, there is a checkbox to "remove all objects outside of bleed box" in the PSP 7 cropping tool dialog box.

Full circle. And I thought I was doing that all along.   :laugh:    One little checkbox.  Is there the equivalent in your newly found Edit Page Boxes in PSP9?   :undecided:

It does not appear to be there unless it it is well hidden. I took an 11" x 17" page and cropped it to 8.5" x 11" with Pitstop 9 using the media box and changed all other boxes to the same size as the media box. The objects outside of the page boxes was still there. So I tried Matt's .eal action list. Imported it into Pitstop 9, ran it, saved the file. Closed it. Opened it back up and the objects outside of the page boxes was still there.

So I tried the PDF Optimizer and the objects were still there. Then I tried the built in global change that came with Pitstop 9.



That didn't work either. At this point I'm saying it can't be done in Acrobat 9 until someone proves me wrong. :laugh: