I would like the opinions of this fine community regarding matching customer-supplied color proofs.
Would the majority of you think it's better to apply small curves at the RIP in prepress so that your proofs match the customer's supplied proofs (assuming they are running a true color managed proofer and not some shitty laser) -OR- would the majority of you prefer to work with the customer to put .icc profiles in place within the design/marketing firm so that as they design (and sign off internally on color and content) they are seeing it as it will reproduce once it gets to your shop?
Another way to look at this debate -
Printer's prepress dept has MANY preset curves named by customer (the repetitive ones)
-OR-
Customer has MANY .icc profiles loaded named after which printer they will be sending the project to
Edit: I removed the poll. I'm rusty at internettzing, forgive me. :D
Curves are for the specific device. How the F would the client have access to press characterization? And without that, what? People just using arbitrary curves, close their eyes, pray for the best and come unglued a week later when their stuff looks like shit?
NO client color management!
When I do see icc tags, I use a PitStop action to remove them. Nothing but heartache involved in generic profiling.
Quote from: Ear on November 15, 2017, 11:52:23 AMCurves are for the specific device. How the F would the client have access to press characterization? And without that, what? People just using arbitrary curves, close their eyes, pray for the best and come unglued a week later when their stuff looks like shit?
NO client color management!
When I do see icc tags, I use a PitStop action to remove them. Nothing but heartache involved in generic profiling.
Very passionate response Ear.. :lmao:
I agree wholeheartedly with you.
We currently are setup and running Gracol here, and sending proofs to our vendors to match. Many times we get proofs back from our vendors and they do
not match our proofs. Our proofs are a bit more yellow. In my mind - our printers should be applying an adjustment curve in the RIP to bump up the yellow and make the proofs match ours prior to sending them back to us to approve - not just sending us proofs run straight through as is and saying "welp, that's what we get from your file".
Quad even went as far as to say they "lost" our proofs, and tried to sell my coworker on their proofs for the press check. I mean of course THEIR proofs matched the press dead nuts. But, we have 50 different people internally that already looked at, and made adjustments to, a bunch of photos to get the color they were wanting.
Am I wrong?
The belief here seems to be that "printers are not able to hit our proofs and that's just the way it is and we'll just have to make the adjustments (to bring the yellow up) on press checks"... I think that's BS.
Quote from: ninjaPB_43 on November 15, 2017, 12:45:42 PMQuad even went as far as to say they "lost" our proofs, and tried to sell my coworker on their proofs for the press check. I mean of course THEIR proofs matched the press dead nuts. But, we have 50 different people internally that already looked at, and made adjustments to, a bunch of photos to get the color they were wanting.
Am I wrong?
The belief here seems to be that "printers are not able to hit our proofs and that's just the way it is and we'll just have to make the adjustments (to bring the yellow up) on press checks"... I think that's BS.
Here's my take on this...
of the people that were making the color adjustments to the images, how many had calibrated monitors?
The guys at Quad do
of the people that were making color adjustments, how many have a calibrated printer in their office?
The guys at Quad have tons
of the people that were making color adjustments, how many have a viewing room or booth with calibrated lights for viewing?
once again, Quad has a lot
That's the reason they can match their proofs, virtually 100% of the time.
We had clients come in with prints off their laser printer at the office and force us to match them because that's what they sold their client on, forget the fact that it was washed out, had no shadow detail and basically had sucky color. We would spend hours correcting their files to match their "proof", just to get it on press and then have the customer decide their proofs were crap and could we do "something" to make them better.
If you are running Gracol (I am assuming you are not doing printing in your facility, just proofing?), then unless the printer you send the files to are also Gracol certified, they will never match. Being Gracol certified means that they are shooting for gray balance, not density or color so much.
And, as an aside, if you are Gracol, why are your proofs yellow?
Quote from: david on November 15, 2017, 01:16:37 PMQuote from: ninjaPB_43 on November 15, 2017, 12:45:42 PMQuad even went as far as to say they "lost" our proofs, and tried to sell my coworker on their proofs for the press check. I mean of course THEIR proofs matched the press dead nuts. But, we have 50 different people internally that already looked at, and made adjustments to, a bunch of photos to get the color they were wanting.
Am I wrong?
The belief here seems to be that "printers are not able to hit our proofs and that's just the way it is and we'll just have to make the adjustments (to bring the yellow up) on press checks"... I think that's BS.
Here's my take on this...
of the people that were making the color adjustments to the images, how many had calibrated monitors?
The guys at Quad do
of the people that were making color adjustments, how many have a calibrated printer in their office?
The guys at Quad have tons
of the people that were making color adjustments, how many have a viewing room or booth with calibrated lights for viewing?
once again, Quad has a lot
That's the reason they can match their proofs, virtually 100% of the time.
We had clients come in with prints off their laser printer at the office and force us to match them because that's what they sold their client on, forget the fact that it was washed out, had no shadow detail and basically had sucky color. We would spend hours correcting their files to match their "proof", just to get it on press and then have the customer decide their proofs were crap and could we do "something" to make them better.
If you are running Gracol (I am assuming you are not doing printing in your facility, just proofing?), then unless the printer you send the files to are also Gracol certified, they will never match. Being Gracol certified means that they are shooting for gray balance, not density or color so much.
And, as an aside, if you are Gracol, why are your proofs yellow?
The reviewed proofs (by all individuals) are done in a light booth over at the photo studio and proofs run on Epson proofers that match my team's proofers perfectly. My team runs the final proofs that go to our vendors who are also Gracol.
Our proofs aren't yellow, they just don't match the proofs we are getting back from our vendors. I'm trying to figure out why and a solution so we aren't constnatly trying to make adjustments on press to match our proofs.
Edit: I get that we'll always have to make some adjustments on-press and some compromises due to how the pages layout and how adjacent colors are affecting each other. My goal right now is to get our proofs to match our vendors proofs so we have a better starting point on press...
Are you making your proofs on the exact paper that is going to be on the press?
Printers, some that is, work very hard to make their proofing system match their press. A closed loop system. It is much easier to adjust a printer as opposed to a press. When you introduce a proof that is outside of that closed loop you are throwing a turd in the punch bowl. Send your files to the printer and get return proofs from them. View and correct to those proofs. Your printers are never going to match the printers press. But you can adjust your files based on the printers proofs and then it is up to the printer to match their own proofs.
Quote from: Joe on November 15, 2017, 01:46:19 PMAre you making your proofs on the exact paper that is going to be on the press?
Printers, some that is, work very hard to make their proofing system match their press. A closed loop system. It is much easier to adjust a printer as opposed to a press. When you introduce a proof that is outside of that closed loop you are throwing a turd in the punch bowl. Send your files to the printer and get return proofs from them. View and correct to those proofs. Your printers are never going to match the printers press. But you can adjust your files based on the printers proofs and then it is up to the printer to match their own proofs.
I'm not trying to have our proof match the press sheet, as much as I want the printer's proof to match ours -OR- vice-versa make our proofs match the printer's. That's the original question I was trying to ask, and it sounds like you are on the side of the debate of making the adjustment to the file at the marketing firm/agency/customer instead of at the printing facility. (FYI - I'm not sure either answer is more right or wrong than the other - but probably depends more on where the skill lies...)
I'm just saying that most printers are not willing to make changes to their press for all of their different customers. The press is the constant (supposedly). All others must adjust to it.
Quote from: Joe on November 15, 2017, 01:59:50 PMI'm just saying that most printers are not willing to make changes to their press for all of their different customers. The press is the constant (supposedly). All others must adjust to it.
ok, I get what you're saying now...
Correct me if I'm wrong, but by applying a curve to increase yellow slightly at the RIP would affect the printer's proof as well as the plates (which in turn would adjust what the press produces)? The press would still be a constant, with the adjustment being made in prepress instead of at the customer end. Especially if the customer has already invested in, and set up running Gracol for their internal proofing ahead of releasing files to the printer?
if all it needed was a touch of yellow, I would just use a curve and call it a day.
No need to reinvent the wheel.
This also goes for digital. Closed loop system is the only way to ensure consistency.
I just helped a local sign/sticker business, all digital, get color calibrated. They were using client based icc profiles and NOTHING matched. This was fine, when they were doing little bumper stickers and such, but they started to get big accounts where they would do signs and car wraps. Of course nothing matched and the clients were pissed.
I took a look at their environment and recommended a color management specialist that I use. He cam in and got them all on a nice, closed loop color control system and now they can keep clients happy.
I'm saying, if you're a little copy shoppe, with one or two devices, doing coffee punch cards and dog grooming business cards, sure, let the clients manage color, who cares. If you want to get serious and be a professional, commercial print shop, you must have control of color on the prepress end. Fact.
Quote from: david on November 15, 2017, 02:22:24 PMif all it needed was a touch of yellow, I would just use a curve and call it a day.
No need to reinvent the wheel.
Just to be clear - at the RIP or at the customer?
Quote from: ninjaPB_43 on November 15, 2017, 12:45:42 PMQuote from: Ear on November 15, 2017, 11:52:23 AMCurves are for the specific device. How the F would the client have access to press characterization? And without that, what? People just using arbitrary curves, close their eyes, pray for the best and come unglued a week later when their stuff looks like shit?
NO client color management!
When I do see icc tags, I use a PitStop action to remove them. Nothing but heartache involved in generic profiling.
Very passionate response Ear.. :lmao:
I agree wholeheartedly with you.
Hey man, this is mah bread-n-butter. I almost got in a fist fight over color management once. :rotf: ... say anything you want about me, but try tagging your own images or you'll get a dirt nap... or at least a heartfelt scolding.
Quote from: Ear on November 15, 2017, 02:36:51 PMHey man, this is mah bread-n-butter. I almost got in a fist fight over color management once. :rotf: ... say anything you want about me, but try tagging your own images or you'll get a dirt nap... or at least a heartfelt scolding.
:git off mah lawn: :spy2: :popcorn:
Quote from: ninjaPB_43 on November 15, 2017, 02:16:17 PMQuote from: Joe on November 15, 2017, 01:59:50 PMI'm just saying that most printers are not willing to make changes to their press for all of their different customers. The press is the constant (supposedly). All others must adjust to it.
ok, I get what you're saying now...
Correct me if I'm wrong, but by applying a curve to increase yellow slightly at the RIP would affect the printer's proof as well as the plates (which in turn would adjust what the press produces)? The press would still be a constant, with the adjustment being made in prepress instead of at the customer end. Especially if the customer has already invested in, and set up running Gracol for their internal proofing ahead of releasing files to the printer?
So the printer should have adjustment curves for every customer they have and the prepress person has to apply that particular curve at plate output time? I hope I'm dead before I see that trend spread.
Quote from: Joe on November 15, 2017, 03:21:40 PMSo the printer should have adjustment curves for every customer they have and the prepress person has to apply that particular curve at plate output time? I hope I'm dead before I see that trend spread.
I don't think it would be
every customer, just the ones who have implemented a color managed proofing workflow in their marketing department... how many customers does your shop have that have done that? I would bet it's few and far between. I honestly believe the company I'm at now is a rare breed.
Quote from: ninjaPB_43 on November 15, 2017, 02:34:12 PMQuote from: david on November 15, 2017, 02:22:24 PMif all it needed was a touch of yellow, I would just use a curve and call it a day.
No need to reinvent the wheel.
Just to be clear - at the RIP or at the customer?
at the RIP, cause they are the ones with the color problem, not the customer.
Quote from: ninjaPB_43 on November 15, 2017, 03:26:41 PMQuote from: Joe on November 15, 2017, 03:21:40 PMSo the printer should have adjustment curves for every customer they have and the prepress person has to apply that particular curve at plate output time? I hope I'm dead before I see that trend spread.
I don't think it would be every customer, just the ones who have implemented a color managed proofing workflow in their marketing department... how many customers does your shop have that have done that? I would bet it's few and far between. I honestly believe the company I'm at now is a rare breed.
When I was a tWilliamson/Quad, we actually ddi this for several clients.
Knowing ahead of time what they did to their color, we were able to use a custom set of curves and make it work. Not a biggie, just set up a process templet and rock on.
Quote from: david on November 15, 2017, 03:30:35 PMQuote from: ninjaPB_43 on November 15, 2017, 03:26:41 PMQuote from: Joe on November 15, 2017, 03:21:40 PMSo the printer should have adjustment curves for every customer they have and the prepress person has to apply that particular curve at plate output time? I hope I'm dead before I see that trend spread.
I don't think it would be every customer, just the ones who have implemented a color managed proofing workflow in their marketing department... how many customers does your shop have that have done that? I would bet it's few and far between. I honestly believe the company I'm at now is a rare breed.
When I was a tWilliamson/Quad, we actually ddi this for several clients.
Knowing ahead of time what they did to their color, we were able to use a custom set of curves and make it work. Not a biggie, just set up a process templet and rock on.
High end clients I assume. Out here in the sticks 99.999999999999999999999999% think they know what they are talking about but really don't and need to be killed.
I agree with that, Dave... I do use custom curve settings for a handful of big, repeat clients. But these also have professional designers who understand this stuff, are capable of prepress and work with us to get consistent results.
Like Joe said, 99% of the rest have less than 1% idea WTF is going on, and are quite indignant about it.
Quote from: ninjaPB_43 on November 15, 2017, 03:26:41 PMQuote from: Joe on November 15, 2017, 03:21:40 PMSo the printer should have adjustment curves for every customer they have and the prepress person has to apply that particular curve at plate output time? I hope I'm dead before I see that trend spread.
I don't think it would be every customer, just the ones who have implemented a color managed proofing workflow in their marketing department... how many customers does your shop have that have done that? I would bet it's few and far between. I honestly believe the company I'm at now is a rare breed.
We have a lot of customers that have heard the color management buzzword and are always asking us for our "magic profile" which will make their shit taste like whipped cream. Anymore I just ignore any of them that mentions color management or profiles.
And PitStop has that handy "remove ICC profiles" action. Keeps me from having to talk to these types. But it also keeps them thinking they are doing it right. Oh well, done and on to the next one, right?
Quote from: Joe on November 15, 2017, 03:34:16 PMQuote from: david on November 15, 2017, 03:30:35 PMWhen I was a tWilliamson/Quad, we actually ddi this for several clients.
Knowing ahead of time what they did to their color, we were able to use a custom set of curves and make it work. Not a biggie, just set up a process templet and rock on.
High end clients I assume. Out here in the sticks 99.999999999999999999999999% think they know what they are talking about but really don't and need to be killed.
:lmao:
I understand and feel you there Joe. 100%.
I don't think the company I now work for falls into that category. I think we fall into the category David is saying they had at Williamson. You all have totally answered my question, and I will now work with our regular vendors to set up some "client specific" curves at the RIP to address the issue. As always - I truly value and appreciate the wisdom in these walls. :drunk3:
yes, if your work is fairly consistent, I would think any printer worth a shit would be happy to do something to make a customer happy so they pay their bill.
Quote from: david on November 15, 2017, 03:57:02 PMyes, if your work is fairly consistent, I would think any printer worth a shit would be happy to do something to make a customer happy so they pay their bill.
Our work is consistent, and project quantities run in the hundreds of thousands to millions on a lot of them. I'm pretty sure they'll work with me. I did want to be certain about what I was going to ask for prior to asking so I knew what I was asking wasn't (completely) unreasonable. :yourock:
Quote from: david on November 15, 2017, 03:57:02 PMyes, if your work is fairly consistent, I would think any printer worth a shit would be happy to do something to make a customer happy so they pay their bill.
Agree. Once they are vetted and have proven to not be dumbasses. I know we don't have a lot of customers here that would pass that test unfortunately.
Just to muddy up this topic some more...
We are G7 certified. The presses (conventional, digital and large format), at least in theory, all match on color so adding the outside variable of a customer color proof just doesn't work for us. With only 1 exception, we don't use any customer provided color proofs and generate internal color proofs that we then send back to the customer for sign off. From what I understand that one exception spent a lot of time and money getting their proofing equipment in line with ours. Setting policy is above my pay grade, but I guess this works for us. :-\
I would say just be aware of what the vendors you are working with are expecting and what standards they are using an you should be fine.
Quote from: david on November 15, 2017, 03:28:33 PMat the RIP, cause they are the ones with the color problem, not the customer.
DISCLAIMER: The below has been done on a separate "Output Device" within our Fiery XF RIP, so that we could revert back to just straight Gracol at anytime if we wanted. UPDATE:
I decided to make the change to our proofers... I am implementing a very slight visual correction (.vcc) at our RIP, and our photo studio's RIP. I had our main printer who is G7 qualified print the same "weekly test file" that we use in house and send it to me. I used Color Tools in our Fiery XF RIP to apply a couple very small curves (ie. I took 4% of yellow out, added 3% magenta, and removed 2% of cyan) and now our proofer matches the proof from the G7 printer pretty much dead nuts.
On to the next hurdle, making the same move to the photo studio proofer/RIP. They have the exact same set up as us (Fiery XF/Epson 7900/Gracol .icc/ etc), so I thought it would be "easy" to go over and make the same moves. I took screen grabs of all settings, and printed them out to go over. Once I got over there - the Color Tools application isn't installed on that machine. It's just the XF Client. Is this possibly a seat limitation thing? I am trying to piece together bits of information from people here because the guy that set it all up is the guy I replaced, and no one seems to have all of the details.
If I just put the .vcc file in the correct folder - will it work the same way or does the workstation need to have Color Tools installed to access the .vcc file? If the workstation needs to have Color Tools installed does anyone know if that means additional licensing? We do not have the discs because when the company upgraded a couple years ago from v4.5 to v6 they did so by having an EFI tech remotely login and install...
I've scoured the EFI website and cannot find a downloads page for any of the applications, but I haven't contacted EFI yet either. I haven't found who their contact was when they did the upgrade (not that matters, because any tech support should be able to help me).
Just thought I'd pick you all's brain and give you an update. Any feedback is appreciated.