Different color profiles for different clients

Started by baker7, May 16, 2016, 10:47:49 AM

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baker7

I've come a long ways since my first posts thanks to you guys.  Wish I had more time to come back and post more than requests for help, but sorry here's another one. 

We've landed new clients who've given us work but each client uses their own color profile on their digital printing devices that are different from the one in our Mutoh.  The files all print out much darker and richer than compared to what comes out of our printer and we need to match for production.  Each client's files all print differently from each other as well.  So to address this, we went out there and planted the color profile that we use in their printer, but they don't like how it prints because the colors look washed out next to their color profile. 

Because we have our existing clients using our color profile and our Lotem 800 is matched to the existing profile, it would be the last resort to change ours to match each new clients color curve.  Do you guys have any idea how we can approach this?  Our normal time to do a job of about an hour has turned to 3 hours or more.  Sometimes we have taken an entire day to do a single job because the colors change so drastically when run on press after matching on Mutoh.   And one uniform problem on all jobs is our deep and intense reds never come out as brilliant that we have to bring down all other colors 20% on the file img and crank up the magenta ink on the press.

After 2 months of continually doing this everyday with unpaid overtime going home after 10 not to mention the frustration is needless to say burning everyone out.  Not sure what to do.. has anyone else run into this sort of problem??  We do sublimation printing for apparel if that might shed light in finding some sort of solution.  One more thing, each client also have different clients using different artists, so using one color profile doesn't necessarily reduce the amount of color matching with Photoshop for each job.  Once in awhile I  get lucky in that using a curve that I did for a previous job works, but 98% I have to go through the pains of matching to mutoh and then matching 2nd time on press.


Greg_Firestone

Hi Baker,

Have you looked at using a color server? This would allow you to take existing CMYK documents (with whatever profiles are attached) and convert them to your press profile(s). It's a cleaner way of doing a CMYK to CMYK version since you won't go through L*a*b* and risk the generation of 4-Color blacks. Instead you would be doing a device-link /4D color conversion.

Regards,
Greg
_______________
Technical Project Manager
OneVision Software

baker7

Sweet, thanks Greg!  That's an approach I didn't even think of nor am I familiar with.  I'll have to look into that!

baker7

Quote from: Greg_Firestone on May 16, 2016, 11:23:13 AMexisting CMYK documents (with whatever profiles are attached) and convert them to your press profile(s).

What if these documents don't have any profiles attached?

baker7

Sorry I know I sound like an idiot, but I just found out Tiff files can have ICC embedded in them.  So how do I assign our press profile onto the image file?  Do I have to make one in photoshop to match our press profile (harmony curve?) and assign it in photoshop?  I can't believe I didn't even think to look into this.  My first prepress job and no one told me about it!!

baker7

#5
I'm talking to myself now, but wait if any profile needs to converted it would be the Mutoh color profile onto the img, right?  Okay, so how do I do that?

*correction: I meant converting img file profile to our Mutoh profile

Ear

Sorry for not weighing in on it but I don't have a solid solution. We all have our color management setups and they are very specific to our environment and completely nerverackin'. It's a groaner of a topic because clients expect crazy shit. Color management ranks in the top 3 reasons prepress makes us 

:drunk3:

For my color management... we hired a color management specialist to come fingerprint presses and consult on our ColorProofXF mini-RIP. He got us pretty much on target and it was a big process.
"... profile says he's a seven-foot tall ex-basketball pro, Hindu guru drag queen alien." ~Jet Black

Greg_Firestone

Quote from: baker7 on May 17, 2016, 11:33:28 AM
Quote from: Greg_Firestone on May 16, 2016, 11:23:13 AMexisting CMYK documents (with whatever profiles are attached) and convert them to your press profile(s).

What if these documents don't have any profiles attached?

Depends on the software. They should allow allow you to define a default profile (if one is missing) or with some solutions, it can analyze the file and make an educated guess at which color profile was used.
_______________
Technical Project Manager
OneVision Software

Greg_Firestone

Quote from: baker7 on May 17, 2016, 12:52:34 PMI'm talking to myself now, but wait if any profile needs to converted it would be the Mutoh color profile onto the img, right?  Okay, so how do I do that?

*correction: I meant converting img file profile to our Mutoh profile

To start with, if you have an RGB image in Photoshop and you're converting it to CMYK for your Mutoh press, what CMYK profile are you using? This is your destination ICC Output profile. It could be an industry standard profile (e.g. SWOP), a vendor supplied profile, or a custom press profile.

If the accuracy of that profile is not great, you'll need to have someone fingerprint your press (As Ear mentioned above) or choose a different profile. This will make sure that the color is accurate for the specific substrate and ink set. You shouldn't need to apply any further curves or adjustments to an image if the profile is accurate.

A color server will then take whatever files you supply it and create an device-link/4d conversion on the fly to the output profile. You can't do this in Photoshop. You'll need special software to do this.
_______________
Technical Project Manager
OneVision Software

baker7

Yeah, I feel like I'm back to square one.  Giving it more thought I'm not sure how the color server could remedy this issue..  maybe I'm still confused with our's and new clients' digital printer profiles and our press plate profile.  I don't think anyone uses RGB in the garment industry as CMYK seems to be the standard.

The problem we're having is mutoh output is very different from Press machine (Akiyama) output for our new customers.  Also their digital sample sheet they give us (which we heatpress onto fabric) is richer and more intense in color than from what we print out on our Mutoh.. (different profile and different ink) of the same Tiff img. 

So the profile that you're talking about seems like a universal standard profile..   now that I think about it some more, correct me if I'm wrong, I don't think that'll help my situation as I would ultimately need the digital printer profile and ink they used so that it would come out the same on our digital printer.  Also translating the accuracy of changes in colors onto the press plates is the other problem we're having.

Our existing clients' jobs are still dead on accurate even when we make changes to the image (via photoshop) it duplicates it perfectly on both Mutoh and press plates.  For our new customers I just don't understand why making changes to the image files print fine from Mutoh but when we make the plates it's all jacked up.  In such a case would we have to make new plate curve for each of our new clients and use accordingly?  Man that seems like an expensive job.

One last thing, before I got here they were on Brisque and the computer it was on broke.  I don't know why they didn't replace it with the same program but the tech we flew in from Ohio replaced it with Prinergy (Harmony) and took with him the hard drive Brisque was on.  Ever since then they started having all sorts of issues with color matching.  From what my boss tells me everything was accurate and the changes to image files would duplicate itself perfectly on the Akiyama.  Never an issue.  He said to get the profile curve and linear curve on the Akiyama sorted out they called in a professional 3 different times. 

I don't know what else to do or what to actually do..  this seems like it's beyond my knowledge and capability.  He wants me to fix it but if a professional color guy can't remedy this what the hell can i do?

baker7

Quote from: Ear on May 17, 2016, 01:36:20 PMSorry for not weighing in on it but I don't have a solid solution. We all have our color management setups and they are very specific to our environment and completely nerverackin'. It's a groaner of a topic because clients expect crazy shit. Color management ranks in the top 3 reasons prepress makes us

:drunk3:

For my color management... we hired a color management specialist to come fingerprint presses and consult on our ColorProofXF mini-RIP. He got us pretty much on target and it was a big process.

Yeah, I think I need to just give this up.  Maybe look for another job.

Joe

I'm not sure I understand your process but it sounds similar to customers I have run across. They want our press to match their proofs that they make on bright white glossy paper while they only want to pay for running the job on 22# newsprint. They don't like our profile because the colors are not super bright and saturated because our profile is designed for an offset press using uncoated newsprint. Sorry it doesn't work that way. They need to match their devices to the final output device that is used. Your press I assume. It is useless to make a proof upfront that looks wonderful if it isn't possible to match it on the final output device.
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mattbeals

Call Rick Hatmaker at Chromix and explain the problem. He'll have a color consultant that can solve this.
Matt Beals

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Farabomb

I have no doubt that it can be solved with a fair amount of money. If that's your biggest customer then maybe it might be worth it. If it's one PITA cuntomer that gives you some work it might not be worth it.
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Joe

Quote from: Farabomb on May 18, 2016, 06:48:19 AMI have no doubt that it can be solved with a fair amount of money. If that's your biggest customer then maybe it might be worth it. If it's one PITA cuntomer that gives you some work it might not be worth it.

Agreed. Just depends on how bad his management team wants it fixed.
Mac OS Sonoma 14.2.1 (c) | (retired)

The seven ages of man: spills, drills, thrills, bills, ills, pills and wills.