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Workflows => Enfocus => Topic started by: metlife on December 28, 2020, 03:05:34 PM

Title: Enfocus Pitstop 2020 - remove white lines from pdf file
Post by: metlife on December 28, 2020, 03:05:34 PM
Hello,
I need help removing the white lines that appear in the pdf file (screen attached). For reasons of document confidentiality, I cannot say what the final product is. The pdf file is generated from ArtPro, it has layers and spot colors. The blue objects shown in the image are vector objects, PitStop shows that their colors are defined as DeviceN (composed of 3 colors). I have tried many ways, but I fail to remove these white lines so as not to disturb the structure of the pdf file and not lose quality. I have run out of ideas on how to get rid of this. I will be very grateful for any help on this topic.
Title: Re: Enfocus Pitstop 2020 - remove white lines from pdf file
Post by: Tracy on December 28, 2020, 03:21:54 PM
Do the white lines actually print?
Title: Re: Enfocus Pitstop 2020 - remove white lines from pdf file
Post by: Joe on December 28, 2020, 03:34:01 PM
Adding to Tracy's question because they appear to be atomic regions caused by flattening but shouldn't print if that is what they are.
Title: Re: Enfocus Pitstop 2020 - remove white lines from pdf file
Post by: david on December 28, 2020, 03:59:53 PM
they do appear to be the world famous "atomic regions".
They will not actually print, or, they don't show on the printed piece when done.
You should be ok, but you can always run a test print and check it out.

Title: Re: Enfocus Pitstop 2020 - remove white lines from pdf file
Post by: metlife on December 28, 2020, 06:09:27 PM
They don't print, but guys from our production line stopped the printing process because they saw lines in the pdf file on the overnight shift and the urgent job has fallen out of the print queue and now we have a delay. In addition, the client sees these lines on the screen and he does not like that he sees them and no arguments reach him about the fact that these lines will not be printed. So we got a recommendation to do everything to prevent such "errors" from appearing in PDF files and now we have to stand on our head to prevent this from happening.

Title: Re: Enfocus Pitstop 2020 - remove white lines from pdf file
Post by: Joe on December 28, 2020, 07:14:03 PM
You can change a preference setting in Acrobat so they don't show up on the screen. Try turning off these 3 options one at a time. One of them will make the atomic regions disappear but I don't remember which one.
Title: Re: Enfocus Pitstop 2020 - remove white lines from pdf file
Post by: Joe on December 28, 2020, 07:18:16 PM
The other option is to stop flattening PDF's.
Title: Re: Enfocus Pitstop 2020 - remove white lines from pdf file
Post by: david on December 29, 2020, 09:41:05 AM
or quit using transparency, whichever comes first.


 :lmao:
Title: Re: Enfocus Pitstop 2020 - remove white lines from pdf file
Post by: metlife on December 29, 2020, 10:09:49 AM
Joe, yes yes, I know these options and we wanted the Client to turn them on in Acrobat, but that's out of the question either. These people are quite annoying and they don't get any arguments. It's like talking to the wall. It would be nice if you could catch these objects in Pitstop and make one picture of them, which of course will keep the color information... but I can't force Pitstop to do that. This Blue Background is pretty complex and we can't simplify it more than it is right now.
Title: Re: Enfocus Pitstop 2020 - remove white lines from pdf file
Post by: Joe on December 29, 2020, 10:50:23 AM
Hello,
I need help removing the white lines that appear in the pdf file (screen attached). For reasons of document confidentiality, I cannot say what the final product is. The pdf file is generated from ArtPro, it has layers and spot colors. The blue objects shown in the image are vector objects, PitStop shows that their colors are defined as DeviceN (composed of 3 colors). I have tried many ways, but I fail to remove these white lines so as not to disturb the structure of the pdf file and not lose quality. I have run out of ideas on how to get rid of this. I will be very grateful for any help on this topic.

OK you aren't making this easy on us. The blue objects in the image you posted...are you sure they are vector in the PDF? Usually these atomic regions appear because of things being transformed into bits of multiple raster images during the flattening. Pitstop does have a method of stitching raster images back into a single image but without seeing a sample PDF I have no idea if it would be possible in your case. Is it possible to make the PDF from Artpro and not flatten it?
Title: Re: Enfocus Pitstop 2020 - remove white lines from pdf file
Post by: metlife on December 29, 2020, 02:32:30 PM
OK you aren't making this easy on us. The blue objects in the image you posted...are you sure they are vector in the PDF? Usually these atomic regions appear because of things being transformed into bits of multiple raster images during the flattening. Pitstop does have a method of stitching raster images back into a single image but without seeing a sample PDF I have no idea if it would be possible in your case. Is it possible to make the PDF from Artpro and not flatten it?

Ok, I'll see if I can remove everything from the file except these key elements, so as not to have the trouble of distributing confidential files. Then I'll send You this pdf file. Maybe You'll have an idea what to do with this issue.
Title: Re: Enfocus Pitstop 2020 - remove white lines from pdf file
Post by: abc on January 04, 2021, 10:20:24 AM
if they are vector it's unlikely they are atomic regions.
What happens if you zoom in/out, do they disappear?
Title: Re: Enfocus Pitstop 2020 - remove white lines from pdf file
Post by: Joe on January 04, 2021, 10:39:59 AM
if they are vector it's unlikely they are atomic regions.
What happens if you zoom in/out, do they disappear?

I suspect they were vector to start with but converted to image when flattened. Haven't seen a sample file to verify that though.
Title: Re: Enfocus Pitstop 2020 - remove white lines from pdf file
Post by: Donomo on January 04, 2021, 12:25:08 PM
In the rare instance that a client does not believe the atomic area's will not print, I have created a "Client Only" PDF. Rastering everything except the type, this usually fools them.
Title: Re: Enfocus Pitstop 2020 - remove white lines from pdf file
Post by: DCurry on January 04, 2021, 01:28:50 PM
I don't think flattening is going on here - if it were, I think we'd see a noticeable jump on either side of the line where one side is vector and the other side is the part that got flattened and rasterized.
Title: Re: Enfocus Pitstop 2020 - remove white lines from pdf file
Post by: Joe on January 04, 2021, 01:34:45 PM
I've never seen atomic regions in a PDF that hasn't been flattened.
Title: Re: Enfocus Pitstop 2020 - remove white lines from pdf file
Post by: DCurry on January 04, 2021, 01:36:49 PM
I don't think they're atomic regions.
Title: Re: Enfocus Pitstop 2020 - remove white lines from pdf file
Post by: Joe on January 04, 2021, 01:40:53 PM
What do you think they are?
Title: Re: Enfocus Pitstop 2020 - remove white lines from pdf file
Post by: DCurry on January 04, 2021, 02:10:15 PM
I've seen very complex all-vector art with gradients and crazy stuff (no flattening) and have it show lines like that onscreen. If there were actual flattening going on wouldn't the atomic regions be rectangular? Yet 2 of those white lines are curves.

We'll never really know until we get a PDF that we can analyze.

(I could be wrong = wouldn't be the first time, certainly won't be the last!)
Title: Re: Enfocus Pitstop 2020 - remove white lines from pdf file
Post by: david on January 04, 2021, 02:45:17 PM
it looks to be a couple of radial gradients, one with the color going light to dark, and the other is just the opposite, on top of each other, which is transparency at it's finest.
If these are in a circular mask, that's possibly where the curved atomic regions come from.

but, I could be wrong, it's only small sample of the page.


Title: Re: Enfocus Pitstop 2020 - remove white lines from pdf file
Post by: DCurry on January 04, 2021, 02:46:32 PM
I'm not ruling out live transparency, just doubting that it is a flattening issue.
Title: Re: Enfocus Pitstop 2020 - remove white lines from pdf file
Post by: Joe on January 04, 2021, 03:00:07 PM
I've seen very complex all-vector art with gradients and crazy stuff (no flattening) and have it show lines like that onscreen. If there were actual flattening going on wouldn't the atomic regions be rectangular? Yet 2 of those white lines are curves.

We'll never really know until we get a PDF that we can analyze.

(I could be wrong = wouldn't be the first time, certainly won't be the last!)

Same here about being wrong. My wife will testify to that! :rotf:

I have seen atomic regions that aren't rectangular. But yes with a sample PDF it will be a mystery.
Title: Re: Enfocus Pitstop 2020 - remove white lines from pdf file
Post by: metlife on January 05, 2021, 12:10:05 PM
Same here about being wrong. My wife will testify to that! :rotf:
I have seen atomic regions that aren't rectangular. But yes with a sample PDF it will be a mystery.

Joe, I appologize that it took so much time. I've got a pdf file that I can send it to You. Please, just tell me how can I send this pdf as a private message to You?
Title: Re: Enfocus Pitstop 2020 - remove white lines from pdf file
Post by: Joe on January 05, 2021, 01:06:56 PM
Same here about being wrong. My wife will testify to that! :rotf:
I have seen atomic regions that aren't rectangular. But yes with a sample PDF it will be a mystery.

Joe, I appologize that it took so much time. I've got a pdf file that I can send it to You. Please, just tell me how can I send this pdf as a private message to You?

Easiest way would be to upload it to https://wetransfer.com/ and send it to my email address which is joe at b4print dot com
Title: Re: Enfocus Pitstop 2020 - remove white lines from pdf file
Post by: metlife on January 05, 2021, 01:47:23 PM
Same here about being wrong. My wife will testify to that! :rotf:
I have seen atomic regions that aren't rectangular. But yes with a sample PDF it will be a mystery.

Joe, I appologize that it took so much time. I've got a pdf file that I can send it to You. Please, just tell me how can I send this pdf as a private message to You?

Easiest way would be to upload it to https://wetransfer.com/ and send it to my email address which is joe at b4print dot com
Joe, I've just send You this pdf file. Please keep this file confidential and not distribute it anywhere. Otherwise, I might get into trouble at my job.
Title: Re: Enfocus Pitstop 2020 - remove white lines from pdf file
Post by: Joe on January 05, 2021, 04:02:02 PM
Joe, I've just send You this pdf file. Please keep this file confidential and not distribute it anywhere. Otherwise, I might get into trouble at my job.

OK I will look at it when I get a few minutes.
Title: Re: Enfocus Pitstop 2020 - remove white lines from pdf file
Post by: abc on January 05, 2021, 04:09:08 PM
The suspense is killing me.   :lmao:
Title: Re: Enfocus Pitstop 2020 - remove white lines from pdf file
Post by: david on January 05, 2021, 04:24:11 PM
excuse me, do you have a security clearance to be reading this?

for Joe's eyes only



Bond, Joe Bond

shaken not stirred



 :lmao:

Title: Re: Enfocus Pitstop 2020 - remove white lines from pdf file
Post by: Joe on January 05, 2021, 05:17:54 PM
Ummmm metlife....I never received a link at my email for this PDF. You didn't actually use the email address spelled exactly as "joe at b4print dot com" did you? All spaces need removed and "at" changed to @ and "dot" changed to .
Title: Re: Enfocus Pitstop 2020 - remove white lines from pdf file
Post by: metlife on January 05, 2021, 05:27:53 PM
Ummmm metlife....I never received a link at my email for this PDF. You didn't actually use the email address spelled exactly as "joe at b4print dot com" did you? All spaces need removed and "at" changed to @ and "dot" changed to .
Joe yes indeed. I might look stupid but only look ;) I've send it to joe@b4print.com. I've also just send You a link to Your mail.
Title: Re: Enfocus Pitstop 2020 - remove white lines from pdf file
Post by: Joe on January 05, 2021, 05:46:05 PM
 :rotf: Sorry. I did get the link now.

The area in question is vector. It is a version 1.6 PDF. It contains no transparency in the file. Not sure if that means there was never any or if it was flattened. The lines though are from clipping paths.. When you first zoom in they are very visible but as the content is drawing they become less visible. If you zoom in far enough they do disappear. If I print the page the lines are not there. You can't delete the line without deleting the content in the clipping path so I don't think they can be deleted.

You may want to send the link to ABC a few posts above as he will surely be able to tell more than I can (he works for Enfocus and is the Supreme Pitstop Guru  :D ).
Title: Re: Enfocus Pitstop 2020 - remove white lines from pdf file
Post by: Joe on January 05, 2021, 06:08:14 PM
Also just wondering if they are viewing the PDF in something other than Acrobat? They are barely visible to me in Acrobat once the page full loads and the more I zoom in the more they disappear. If I open it in Preview on the mac the lines look like 1 pt rules.
Title: Re: Enfocus Pitstop 2020 - remove white lines from pdf file
Post by: DCurry on January 05, 2021, 08:46:06 PM
So... not atomic regions? I WIN!!!
Title: Re: Enfocus Pitstop 2020 - remove white lines from pdf file
Post by: Joe on January 05, 2021, 08:55:13 PM
So... not atomic regions? I WIN!!!

Yep your prize is on the way!
Title: Re: Enfocus Pitstop 2020 - remove white lines from pdf file
Post by: david on January 06, 2021, 09:27:26 AM
So... not atomic regions? I WIN!!!

Golden Rocket Pony Day!!!

 :banana: :banana:
Title: Re: Enfocus Pitstop 2020 - remove white lines from pdf file
Post by: metlife on January 06, 2021, 09:51:04 AM
The suspense is killing me.   :lmao:
You may want to send the link to ABC a few posts above as he will surely be able to tell more than I can (he works for Enfocus and is the Supreme Pitstop Guru  :D ).
ABC, is it possible for You to look at this pdf file if I send it to You and tell us more about those lines? Will it be possible to get rid of them in Pitstop somehow?
Joe, I don't know which application they use to preview this file but I think it is simple Acrobat Reader.
Title: Re: Enfocus Pitstop 2020 - remove white lines from pdf file
Post by: DCurry on January 06, 2021, 09:58:34 AM
metlife, don't get your hopes up - those lines are just where 2 objects meet and your screen stops drawing one and starts drawing the next one.

If you need it to disappear for your customer's proof, consider providing them a rasterized proof rather than vector.
Title: Re: Enfocus Pitstop 2020 - remove white lines from pdf file
Post by: metlife on January 06, 2021, 10:02:08 AM
metlife, don't get your hopes up - those lines are just where 2 objects meet and your screen stops drawing one and starts drawing the next one.

If you need it to disappear for your customer's proof, consider providing them a rasterized proof rather than vector.
DCurry
I still have hope for that it works. In Pitstop there is function "Remove white lines" but I don't know how to select only those objects to rasterize them and not loose any information about its color and not to rasterize whole content in this pdf but only specific objects.
Title: Re: Enfocus Pitstop 2020 - remove white lines from pdf file
Post by: DCurry on January 06, 2021, 10:18:06 AM
I'm suggesting that you do indeed rasterize the entire page. Rasterizing part of the page or only specific objects is the worst thing you could do, IMHO. If you use the same rasterization engine that your rip uses you'll actually have a more accurate proof since the rip has to rasterize the art when it makes plates.

I kinda doubt the action you're referring to will work because these are not actually white lines, but adjoining shapes and your screen is just drawing the shapes, and where they meet it just appears to look like a line.

Have you actually printed one out to know if this is even a real problem? I know it's a problem for your customer, but sometimes customers need to be educated and if you can show them a real printed sample it might help alleviate their concerns.
Title: Re: Enfocus Pitstop 2020 - remove white lines from pdf file
Post by: metlife on January 06, 2021, 10:28:16 AM
I'm suggesting that you do indeed rasterize the entire page. Rasterizing part of the page or only specific objects is the worst thing you could do, IMHO. If you use the same rasterization engine that your rip uses you'll actually have a more accurate proof since the rip has to rasterize the art when it makes plates.

I kinda doubt the action you're referring to will work because these are not actually white lines, but adjoining shapes and your screen is just drawing the shapes, and where they meet it just appears to look like a line.

Have you actually printed one out to know if this is even a real problem? I know it's a problem for your customer, but sometimes customers need to be educated and if you can show them a real printed sample it might help alleviate their concerns.
I already used this feature to remove white lines without rasterizing the entire page, and it worked. However, here I am not able to force this function to work, because I did not manage to set it in such a way that these specific objects are selected. On the positive side, they are on a separate layer in the pdf file so maybe this will work out somehow. However, regarding your question about printing. Yes, we printed these files and there was no visible problem, but our client and the people who print it on our machines are uneducable that these lines do not pose any threat. In this way, one of these printers canceled the printing on the night shift and the finished product was delayed in arriving at the customer.
Title: Re: Enfocus Pitstop 2020 - remove white lines from pdf file
Post by: DCurry on January 06, 2021, 10:36:47 AM
Are you saying you used the "remove white lines" action on THIS job and it worked, or on some other job and it worked then? The reason I'm doubting that it would work on this one is that as I understand it there is nothing to be selected (I don't have the PDF so I can only go on what I'm reading here.) I have an older version of PitStop so I can't look at the action to analyze what it does.

Unfortunately, software won't fix dummies! My fear is always that whatever heroic measures you go through to make the PDF acceptable to the client and the people running the machine might have unintended consequences that no one notices until the job is delivered!

Good luck! You've found us, so you'll get the best help one way or another.
Title: Re: Enfocus Pitstop 2020 - remove white lines from pdf file
Post by: Joe on January 06, 2021, 10:38:36 AM
Agree with DCurry on the part that there are no white lines to delete and that rasterization make them less visible while viewing. I don't agree with rasterizing the whole page though. I would try the action to rasterize everything but keep the text as text. Good info from him as well about educating the customer.
Title: Re: Enfocus Pitstop 2020 - remove white lines from pdf file
Post by: DCurry on January 06, 2021, 10:43:45 AM
I hear ya, Joe, but if there are stacking order issues with the text then it could screw up the rasterization. If all the text is above everything that gets rasterized this would be fine, but if some text is below it might get blocked out and disappear. Should be easy enough to write an action that would preserve the text and one could watch closely to make sure no type disappears. Still a tad risky to me, though.
Title: Re: Enfocus Pitstop 2020 - remove white lines from pdf file
Post by: Joe on January 06, 2021, 10:50:38 AM
Agree with DCurry on the part that there are no white lines to delete and that rasterization make them less visible while viewing. I don't agree with rasterizing the whole page though. I would try the action to rasterize everything but keep the text as text. Good info from him as well about educating the customer.

Nevermind what I said there. Rasterizing it makes it much worse than it was before. See attached screen shot.
Title: Re: Enfocus Pitstop 2020 - remove white lines from pdf file
Post by: DCurry on January 06, 2021, 10:59:45 AM
Dang! Glad it's not my job!
Title: Re: Enfocus Pitstop 2020 - remove white lines from pdf file
Post by: DCurry on January 06, 2021, 11:00:57 AM
How did you rasterize it? I'm thinking the rip might have a better shot.
Title: Re: Enfocus Pitstop 2020 - remove white lines from pdf file
Post by: Joe on January 06, 2021, 11:08:33 AM
How did you rasterize it? I'm thinking the rip might have a better shot.

Just used the action to rasterize everything but text. And I only went to 300 dpi but I can't imagine it would be much better at 600 dpi and going up all the way to 2400 dpi would be major time thief.
Title: Re: Enfocus Pitstop 2020 - remove white lines from pdf file
Post by: abc on January 06, 2021, 03:59:24 PM
you have to watch the anti-aliasing as it accentuates the white lines.
but on the flipside you need the anti-aliasing to render a vector curve smoothly.
If you can send it over I can have a look.

At the end of the day I think this is just the screen representation in Acrobat.
Also the resolution in the Acrobat preferences might help, but that probably won't help the customer with what they are seeing!
Title: Re: Enfocus Pitstop 2020 - remove white lines from pdf file
Post by: DCurry on January 06, 2021, 04:54:49 PM
metlife - can you provide a PDF for all of us to play with? I understand there are privacy issues, but can't you get rid of any identifying copy and post the PDF? It really is your best shot at getting a good solution, or at least some insight into how different workflows might handle it.
Title: Re: Enfocus Pitstop 2020 - remove white lines from pdf file
Post by: metlife on January 07, 2021, 04:56:32 PM
Abc and DCurry, I've send You a mail with link to download this pdf file. It is the same file which I've send to Joe. I get rid of everything and I only left background which cause problems. Please do not distribute this file anywhere. Sorry it took some time to answer, I see that we are 6 hours apart.
Title: Re: Enfocus Pitstop 2020 - remove white lines from pdf file
Post by: DCurry on January 08, 2021, 09:49:06 AM
OK, I got the file and after forwarding it to everyone I know and asking them to do the same... (just joshing!)

The white lines don't show up for me in Acrobat unless I turn on the "Smooth Line Art" checkbox in Page Display preferences as referenced early in this thread.

All testing I did thru Prinergy showed that the lines don't print. I tried rasterizing to 8-bit (like we would send to our Epson proofer) and also as 1-bit (like what we would send to our platesetter) and no lines appeared.

The only way I could get the lines to appear was by rasterizing the PDF using Pitstop, or as mentioned above by clicking "Smooth Line Art" in Acrobat prefs.

Turn off that checkbox on everyone's Acrobat (yours, the guy who stopped the job, and the customer's) and you should be fine. If that's not a practical option, you may need to seek other possibilities for having your RIP generate a proof, but if that proof remains as live vectors you'll still need to change that Acrobat setting.
Title: Re: Enfocus Pitstop 2020 - remove white lines from pdf file
Post by: Joe on January 08, 2021, 09:58:16 AM
I even tried rasterizing the page by opening in photoshop and it enhances the white lines so I still think the best option is to make sure they are viewing it in Acrobat and turning off the "Smooth Line Art" option. I understand customers can be difficult but at some point they have to realize they may have to change their way of doing things to view complex files properly.
Title: Re: Enfocus Pitstop 2020 - remove white lines from pdf file
Post by: david on January 08, 2021, 10:29:50 AM
I have a similar problem with customers and acrobat.
One job we do has metallic ink under the color, which involves overprinting.
They demand a pdf proof.
To view the file correctly, you need to have overprint preview in Acrobat turned on.
I have sent them instructions (with screen captures and everything) on multiple occasions.


they refuse to do even that simple request.

oh well, on to the next job...

 :facepalm:
Title: Re: Enfocus Pitstop 2020 - remove white lines from pdf file
Post by: Tracy on January 08, 2021, 01:41:30 PM
Screen shot  :laugh:

I usually tell them to zoom way in and the lines disappear, It's hard to explain this one to people
who just don't understand!

not sure if the lines disappear when zooming in on this file, doesn't seem like it.
Title: Re: Enfocus Pitstop 2020 - remove white lines from pdf file
Post by: metlife on January 09, 2021, 12:42:41 PM
Those white lines don't show up on printing, only on monitor screen. Like I said, we tried to convince our Clients and printers on our production line, but it is too difficult for them to change the appropriate settings in Acrobat. As I mentioned before, it's like talking to the wall. My 4yr old daughter seems to be smarter then Them ;) It is terrible how stubborn and stupid some people are and from year to year it is getting worse.
Title: Re: Enfocus Pitstop 2020 - remove white lines from pdf file
Post by: DCurry on January 09, 2021, 07:26:29 PM
In that case, I guess the job will never get printed since the client won't approve it, and even if they did your production crew won't print it. Good luck with that.


If you send your PDF proofs via email, I would suggest adding a disclaimer (you can create a custom signature that will put it on all emails) advising recipient to turn on "Overprint Preview" and turn off "Smooth Line Art." At least then you don't have to constantly tell people, and they can do what they want with the info.
Title: Re: Enfocus Pitstop 2020 - remove white lines from pdf file
Post by: abc on January 11, 2021, 03:22:59 PM
You know what is quite surprising, and may actually be relevant here is that the PDF Producer of this file is Distiller!

Originally I thought you said it came from ArtPro?

Looks like somewhere down the line somebody introduced the dead 20+ year old format of Postscript.

I wonder if it would be possible to export this directly to PDF, you might see an entirely different result then!

 :facepalm:
Title: Re: Enfocus Pitstop 2020 - remove white lines from pdf file
Post by: metlife on January 16, 2021, 05:53:50 PM
Abc,
You're right, I said it was generated from ArtPro. I forgot that this file is actually generated by Distiller. My mistake that I forgot this pdf generating step. :facepalm:
I will check if I can export it to pdf file with specific settings.
Title: Re: Enfocus Pitstop 2020 - remove white lines from pdf file
Post by: Joe on January 16, 2021, 05:56:49 PM
Try exporting directly as PDF/X-4.