I'm currently not running it at all 30. But that is helpful information.

Quote from: 30YearsandCounting on June 18, 2009, 11:41:03 AMWhat versions of Sublima do you run... 240?  Is your competition running 20 micron Stacatto ...or 10?
I've heard that unlike Sublima, it is very difficult to make any (4-color) color adjustments on press with Stacatto.  In other words... come on in for the press check but if you don't like it, there's not much we can do.

That is true or so I've heard. To correct something you have to go back to prepress, make the adjustment and output a new plate(s).

Stochastic screening is not as forgiving as any other dot shape. The presses have to be nice and tight, print clean and in register.
Anything less than 20 micron looks grainy, 10 micron is the way to go, but unless you have a new(er) platesetter with nice optics, you won't be able to output 10 micron. We have two fairly new Lotem 800s at 2400 dpi and we can only do 10 micron ish.

We do print stochastic on our web and sheetfed presses (Esko Sto, not Sublima or that other crap).



edit: meant to say anything larger than 20 microns looks grainy....

 :embarrassed:

Sort of a side note:  we started using stochastic only on yellow on all our silk screen jobs and lo and behold pretty much all the moires went away.

Funny to hear the ways people started using FM screening. We accidentally (not me) output a set of plates in Staccato 20M about 6 years ago and the pressman pulled up on it and came back to us scratching his head. Have been running it ever since. Need good control on press (fount. solution, inks, plates). I have been fighting a color variation on press ever since we went to FM.

But to me, the goods out-weigh the bad. Yeah you need a very clean environment, excellent imagesetter, and good iron. But if you have the correct conditions, it looks awesome! I think the lack of ability to shift color on press is good. Pressmen can't run a whole job that could be a color wheel if flipped through. Can run really small 4/c type with ease. Reg. is forgiving, and the images look photographic. Less ink used (owner likes that). But yes the screen builds can get muddy. I wish Kodak or one of these workflow companies would figure out how to make an automated hybrid workflow template. All images FM, all vector AM.

We tried it. Pressmen hated it probably for the very reasons David and Aaron mentioned. Back to conventional. In an effort to save money we are going back to an ole idea with new technology- undercolor removal and GCR.

Quote from: tapdn on June 22, 2009, 01:06:22 PMWe tried it. Pressmen hated it probably for the very reasons David and Aaron mentioned. Back to conventional. In an effort to save money we are going back to an ole idea with new technology- undercolor removal and GCR.

Pressmen will probably hate that too. Very little press movement on a full GCR job too...just like stochastic.

Pressmen will bitch.
One of the few real truisms in life.
 :rolleyes: :laugh:

I am adding this to the 100 Rules of Prepress. :laugh:

Hello guys! Hello Shovy!

Stochastic is the name of that merchandising plan to sell a new screen technology. That printers that print at 150 lpi in coated stocks look it as the "mother of all screens". The true is that you must keep hardly your process control. As Dave said, even the ctp's optics.

Sometimes looks fine, sometimes looks grainny (as my aunt Maria). I recommend Staccato for specific kind of images (not as a standard for all the production).

I'm not working for Agfa (nor I have an Agfa device) but I'm study the Sublima screening since last years and seemed to me to be a very useful screen technology to print images with even best quality without sacrificing your production time and costs. You can use this screening for the every day jobs.

There are different flavors of Sublima: Esko, Artworks (diferent screen name than Esko) and Rampage.

You can look the difference in quality between Staccato and Sublima watching printed jobs with achromatic grays (CMY grays). In these areas you'll look colored grainny grays in Staccato and clean grays in Sublima.

Kodak did a good merchanising job when promoting Staccato. Just compare the same images printed on both screen technologies and you can show your clients the truth.

Shovy, hope this help you.

Cheers for everyone.

Ps. Guys, I posted a topic in CMS category called "Oris Color tuner vs GMG". If you have the time, please set your reply. It will really help me your opinion.

Sorry if this broke the forum rules. I won't do it anymore.

Quote from: Edgar on July 11, 2009, 11:37:11 AMHello guys! Hello Shovy!

Sorry if this broke the forum rules. I won't do it anymore.

Hah, if you think you've done anything bad, you need to polish your act to catch up with some here, Edgar.  :laugh:  Great to hear your whacky humour again , mate.   And my regards to Aunt Maria.   :cheesy:

We looked at FM, briefly. Our press conditions are crap, basically a huge tin shed. Although we're in a temperate clime, we're a reasonable height above sea level, and get quite a big variation in humidity/temp etc. through the day/week. I fought the idea of FM, mainly because of our conditions. We do have Co-Rés screening, but haven't used it as much as we could. Hope to remedy this.
It enables a doubling of effective res, allowing 300 lpi @ 2400 dpi, without any of the downsides of FM. The screening software somehow (almost) eliminates moiré, despite it being a rosette-based screening. Don't ask me how, but the zoomed-in dots sure look different. However, can't remember the last time we encountered moiré.    :undecided:

The only real issue was getting Black Magic proofing close enough. Close, but... Fuji had a little difficulty doing so; but am now motivated to pursue it again. The couple of jobs we ran it on looked very spiffy. But then, the images were hi-qual pro-photographer shots.
Have a job out on o'seas proof, with some reasonable lead-time. May try a Co-Rés test on a forme this week. Has bugged me we've under-utilised it.

   Co-Res screening

I worked least than 1 years with stochastic screenning. first at all if you want printing with scochastic, calibration your machine offset and your CtP.... you can take FOGRA for uncouted and couted papers,dont make mistake at diagram... after that.. you must familiar with GCR.. because Stochastic are almost greeny in papers printing :cool:.....  I hope helpfull, thx

gunchie :

Hey Frailer! When I hear the word "Australia", a song of Men at Work is coming to my mind: I came from a land down under. I play Men at work songs every time when making barbecue at home.

As for stochastic, I can say that it have a real advantage compared to other screening technologies. It's refered when printing thinner strokes (or lines) colored of one color at some screen percent. When printed on stochastic, this lines appears smoother than those printed at conventional screening. When printed in conventional screening, those lines appears jagged because the order of dots and the screen angle.

We use Spekta from Screen. This is an hybrid screen technology that is similar to stochastic. I select it when output jobs with this kind of lines.

REMEMBER. Stochastic is a good solution ONLY for some kind of jobs, not for the every day jobs. Unless you ever print clothes cataloges or cartography (maps). It's a mistake to say it's to print all kind of jobs.

..."It's a Mistake". Hey Frailer, is this a Men at Work song?

Quote from: Edgar on July 13, 2009, 09:41:40 AMHey Frailer! When I hear the word "Australia", a song of Men at Work is coming to my mind: I came from a land down under. I play Men at work songs every time when making barbecue at home.

..."It's a Mistake". Hey Frailer, is this a Men at Work song?

Yeah, great BBQ music, Edgar. Happy, rocky.   

"It's a Mistake".  Yep, Men at Work song. Glad you like them. Classic Aussie rock. Quirky lyrics. A couple of those guys are still gigging here. Croc-rock, but, hey, they're still giving it a go.

They played that DownUnder song when Aus. won the Americas Cup. It was a shock-horror at the time, winning that. But just a fading memory now. ...'82/'83.

Listen/watch here: LandDownUnder


Er, sorry, DCS. Where else would you find a forum where a Mod hijacks ya thread.   :laugh:     Why we're different.    :cheesy:

Really Captain... I could care less. Thread Jacking is an art, and one I appreciate. No apologies necessary.

Now, you try to jack my job or my woman... we may have a problem. :laugh: