Coated vs. Uncoated curves

Started by DCurry, June 29, 2011, 12:11:31 PM

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DCurry

June 29, 2011, 12:11:31 PM
I'm curious what others use for their uncoated curves. In truth, I've never used 2 curves - just one multi-purpose curve for everything (old shop used 1 curve for each press). Do you just pull the 3/4 tones and midtones down a bit to reduce the amount of ink being applied? I'm not looking to run a press test or anything.
Prinect • Signa Station • XMPie

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a night. But set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life!

Stiv

#1
June 29, 2011, 12:26:52 PM
Overkill here, we have curves for every color on every unit of every press for Coated, Matte and Uncoated paper.

For example, our 50% on Press A Cyan unit 2, Uncoated is set to 76 and the 50% for Coated is set to 62.9. These are used after the plate has been linearized.

We have two columns of curves, one that linearizes the plate and one that then puts the specific curve back in.

DCurry

#2
June 29, 2011, 12:30:47 PM
That seems backwards - shouldn't your coated stock take more ink? Or are the numbers telling you what your gain is?
Prinect • Signa Station • XMPie

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a night. But set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life!

Stiv

#3
June 29, 2011, 12:33:01 PM
For that unit we want to plate to read 56 for Caoted and 46 for Uncoated.

David

#4
June 29, 2011, 12:38:10 PM
we either use an output curve or do a photoshop curve, depending on the stock, conventional or UV inks.

sometimes we do both, along with color manage.
Prepress guy - Retired - Working from home
Livin' la Vida Loca

Joe

#5
June 29, 2011, 12:43:58 PM
We use FUM curves...
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(Farked Up Mess)
Mac OS Sonoma 14.2.1 (c) | (retired)

The seven ages of man: spills, drills, thrills, bills, ills, pills and wills.

DigiCorn

#6
June 29, 2011, 12:52:55 PM
Quote from: Joe on June 29, 2011, 12:43:58 PMWe use FUM curves...
Ours have changed so often with new ink, new chemistry, new plates, and new paper that we now use FUBAR curves.
"There's been a lot of research recently on how hard it is to dislodge an impression once it's been implanted in someone's mind. (This is why political attack ads don't have to be true to be effective. The other side can point out their inaccuracies, but the voter's mind privileges the memory of the original accusation, which was juicier than any counterargument ever could be.)"
― Johnny Carson

"Selling my soul would be a lot easier if I could just find it."
– Nikki Sixx

"Always do sober what you said you'd do drunk. That will teach you to keep your mouth shut."
― Ernest Hemingway

Rabid

#7
June 29, 2011, 01:01:47 PM
One for Coated and one for Uncoated that pulls back the mid & 3/4 tones about 8%.
We have a corresponding Uncoated curve for proofing.
We only do custom curves when we have to match another printers job or something we ran using our previous workflow/equipment.

DigiCorn

#8
June 29, 2011, 01:17:02 PM
Actually, we just run linear 100% of the time. But every time I have a changing condition (new batch of plates, new chemistry, clean processor, etc.) I recalibrate my plate media curve to ensure a true linear match.
"There's been a lot of research recently on how hard it is to dislodge an impression once it's been implanted in someone's mind. (This is why political attack ads don't have to be true to be effective. The other side can point out their inaccuracies, but the voter's mind privileges the memory of the original accusation, which was juicier than any counterargument ever could be.)"
― Johnny Carson

"Selling my soul would be a lot easier if I could just find it."
– Nikki Sixx

"Always do sober what you said you'd do drunk. That will teach you to keep your mouth shut."
― Ernest Hemingway

DCurry

#9
June 29, 2011, 06:51:18 PM
Yeah, I've been running linear but I've been toying with using a curve for uncoated to back off on the ink a bit. I have one job in particular this week that is on uncoated paper and the photos are all a bit dark, and I don't want to mess with them individually (pure laziness on my part!) so I thought I'd experiment.
Prinect • Signa Station • XMPie

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a night. But set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life!

Ear

#10
June 30, 2011, 08:44:27 AM
I was fortunate to have a couple of very large, picky clients. Bossman agreed to getting a color specialist in to fingerprint the presses. Bruce Bayne, from Alder Technologies. He has been my prepress Yoda for years and is a very cool guy to work with.

We first established the linear plate curve, so there was no variation in what was coming out of the processor. Then, ran a target sheet on multiple different line screens for all presses. Same as Stiv said, each unit has its own calibration. We run 133lpi on uncoated and 175 on coated. The heatset Cyan unit, for instance, images 50% as 38% on the plate... it actually prints 50% on press. It makes for awesome control and consistency... the pressmen can run to density and everything just falls into place to match proof and calibrated monitor. It took almost a week... cost a ton of cash, went through a lot of plates and spoil paper but the results are worth it, IMO. No more color fights between press and prepress.

It was a cool process too... Bruce had a laptop hooked to his densitometer at the press. He gave me a PDF that was a target. Had all sorts of color patches, slur, trap, etc... and his equipment would analyze it as it came off the press. He would then generate the curve set and we plugged it into the different, respective queues in the workflow. It was truly a fascinating process. Wouldn't want to try it myself tho. Bayne really knows his stuff.
"... profile says he's a seven-foot tall ex-basketball pro, Hindu guru drag queen alien." ~Jet Black

DigiCorn

#11
June 30, 2011, 08:47:41 AM
Similar process here, only the guy's name was Lou Prestia. http://www.prestia.com/

I did once try to go it alone and reprofile my 7880 with a different paper, and I couldn't get anywhere remotely in the ballpark for color.
"There's been a lot of research recently on how hard it is to dislodge an impression once it's been implanted in someone's mind. (This is why political attack ads don't have to be true to be effective. The other side can point out their inaccuracies, but the voter's mind privileges the memory of the original accusation, which was juicier than any counterargument ever could be.)"
― Johnny Carson

"Selling my soul would be a lot easier if I could just find it."
– Nikki Sixx

"Always do sober what you said you'd do drunk. That will teach you to keep your mouth shut."
― Ernest Hemingway

Ear

#12
June 30, 2011, 08:55:31 AM
Exactly. I know a fellow prepress OP, who is a very sharp operator, who tried it himself and it ended in frustration. Owner of his shop picked up an Eye-One and software from a place that was closing down. Ended up canning it and getting a specialist in to do it. The guys who do it for a living have higher end equipment and have spent as much time honing their craft as any other specialist. There is a reason they get paid big bucks to do it. http://aldertech.com/

"... profile says he's a seven-foot tall ex-basketball pro, Hindu guru drag queen alien." ~Jet Black

Joe

#13
June 30, 2011, 10:15:17 AM
Quote from: Earendil on June 30, 2011, 08:44:27 AMI was fortunate to have a couple of very large, picky clients. Bossman agreed to getting a color specialist in to fingerprint the presses. Bruce Bayne, from Alder Technologies. He has been my prepress Yoda for years and is a very cool guy to work with.

We first established the linear plate curve, so there was no variation in what was coming out of the processor. Then, ran a target sheet on multiple different line screens for all presses. Same as Stiv said, each unit has its own calibration. We run 133lpi on uncoated and 175 on coated. The heatset Cyan unit, for instance, images 50% as 38% on the plate... it actually prints 50% on press. It makes for awesome control and consistency... the pressmen can run to density and everything just falls into place to match proof and calibrated monitor. It took almost a week... cost a ton of cash, went through a lot of plates and spoil paper but the results are worth it, IMO. No more color fights between press and prepress.

It was a cool process too... Bruce had a laptop hooked to his densitometer at the press. He gave me a PDF that was a target. Had all sorts of color patches, slur, trap, etc... and his equipment would analyze it as it came off the press. He would then generate the curve set and we plugged it into the different, respective queues in the workflow. It was truly a fascinating process. Wouldn't want to try it myself tho. Bayne really knows his stuff.

Absolutely 100% the correct way to do it. And we don't here. :death:
Mac OS Sonoma 14.2.1 (c) | (retired)

The seven ages of man: spills, drills, thrills, bills, ills, pills and wills.

Ear

#14
June 30, 2011, 10:22:49 AM
Ya... I fought tooth and nail for over 3 years to get the approval for this operation. It finally came down to the big picky ones and our color not cutting it. Have a couple big jobs bounce because of color and minds start to change. I talked them into a new Epson 9900 with SpectroProofer attachment and an EFI XF, separate of my main RIP, just for color... and the fingerprinting and proofer calibration guru to come here for a week and dial everything in. Now, they are VERY happy they invested in the fingerprinting. Speedmaster and both webs are dialed in. Everything is controlled by the numbers... until it hits bindery.  :laugh:
"... profile says he's a seven-foot tall ex-basketball pro, Hindu guru drag queen alien." ~Jet Black
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