Quote from: Farabomb on November 13, 2014, 02:32:49 PMI'm aware of this, I just have to figure out how I can tell him so that he thinks it's his idea. That's the only way it will get done.

Send him an anonymous e-mail.

Quote from: Joe on November 13, 2014, 02:03:15 PMLets start from the beginning. Output a plate with the scale with no curve applied. (Plate Curve or Print Curve). This will tell you if your plate is linear which it probably isn't so in Harmony you would create a Plate Curve to make it linear...a 2% = a 2% up through the 98% and a solid. Once you have a linear plate than you can create a Print Curve to adjust for dot gain etc...we make our 50% read a 38% for newsprint. About a 44% for coated.

Gotcha, and that's what I did.  Our percentages were way off, 5%+ in some of the midtones.  I've used harmony to create a Plate Curve and hopefully linearize the plate.  I'm outputting plates now to see if this was actually accomplished.  

Quote from: zacgil on November 13, 2014, 02:41:44 PM

Quote from: Joe on November 13, 2014, 02:03:15 PMLets start from the beginning. Output a plate with the scale with no curve applied. (Plate Curve or Print Curve). This will tell you if your plate is linear which it probably isn't so in Harmony you would create a Plate Curve to make it linear...a 2% = a 2% up through the 98% and a solid. Once you have a linear plate than you can create a Print Curve to adjust for dot gain etc...we make our 50% read a 38% for newsprint. About a 44% for coated.

Gotcha, and that's what I did.  Our percentages were way off, 5%+ in some of the midtones.  I've used harmony to create a Plate Curve and hopefully linearize the plate.  I'm outputting plates now to see if this was actually accomplished.

That's a good start. Progress...

Quote from: Farabomb on November 13, 2014, 02:23:02 PMThat's what I was thinking. You have to cut on the plate to account for gain on press. You make all the values 2%-98% read that on the sheet at normal running densities with your house stock, chemical, ink... what you normally use day to day. The designer is expecting a 50% to be a 50% and designs accordingly.

After you have the plate curve set to produce this you make a profile for the proofer to chase what the press delivers with the linear plate. If everything is producing the values correctly you have a target to hit.

This will be a hard sell to the powers that be here. He still thinks we should be matching film and press gain. He thinks that it produces richer, fuller printing. That may be true but designers don't consider that anymore (if they ever did). They expect that their 50% will be 50% and so on.

I can tell you if you have a 50% in the file and 50% on the plate you ain't getting a 50% on any kind of paper. ALL paper shows dot gain. The better coated stocks don't show nearly as much as something like newsprint but they still have some gain. So if your file has 50% and you want 50% on paper you can't put a 50% dot on plate. It's just impossible.

Quote from: zacgil on November 13, 2014, 02:41:44 PM

Quote from: Joe on November 13, 2014, 02:03:15 PMLets start from the beginning. Output a plate with the scale with no curve applied. (Plate Curve or Print Curve). This will tell you if your plate is linear which it probably isn't so in Harmony you would create a Plate Curve to make it linear...a 2% = a 2% up through the 98% and a solid. Once you have a linear plate than you can create a Print Curve to adjust for dot gain etc...we make our 50% read a 38% for newsprint. About a 44% for coated.

Gotcha, and that's what I did.  Our percentages were way off, 5%+ in some of the midtones.  I've used harmony to create a Plate Curve and hopefully linearize the plate.  I'm outputting plates now to see if this was actually accomplished.

It's actually quite easy in Harmony. You make your plate with no curve. Read the plate. Enter the numbers the plate reads in your new curve and it should come out linear. If you have to chase it more than one round of adjustments something is not right.

Quote from: Joe on November 13, 2014, 03:33:10 PM

Quote from: Farabomb on November 13, 2014, 02:23:02 PMThat's what I was thinking. You have to cut on the plate to account for gain on press. You make all the values 2%-98% read that on the sheet at normal running densities with your house stock, chemical, ink... what you normally use day to day. The designer is expecting a 50% to be a 50% and designs accordingly.

After you have the plate curve set to produce this you make a profile for the proofer to chase what the press delivers with the linear plate. If everything is producing the values correctly you have a target to hit.

This will be a hard sell to the powers that be here. He still thinks we should be matching film and press gain. He thinks that it produces richer, fuller printing. That may be true but designers don't consider that anymore (if they ever did). They expect that their 50% will be 50% and so on.

I can tell you if you have a 50% in the file and 50% on the plate you ain't getting a 50% on any kind of paper. ALL paper shows dot gain. The better coated stocks don't show nearly as much as something like newsprint but they still have some gain. So if your file has 50% and you want 50% on paper you can't put a 50% dot on plate. It's just impossible.

Exactly, you have to make a curve that cuts the plate to create less than a 50% dot so that when it's laid down on the stock the resulting image on the printed piece is 50%.

I didn't realize newsprint has that much gain. We mainly use coated stock here, with some offset here and there.

Quote from: Joe on November 13, 2014, 03:33:10 PM

Quote from: Farabomb on November 13, 2014, 02:23:02 PMThat's what I was thinking. You have to cut on the plate to account for gain on press. You make all the values 2%-98% read that on the sheet at normal running densities with your house stock, chemical, ink... what you normally use day to day. The designer is expecting a 50% to be a 50% and designs accordingly.

After you have the plate curve set to produce this you make a profile for the proofer to chase what the press delivers with the linear plate. If everything is producing the values correctly you have a target to hit.

This will be a hard sell to the powers that be here. He still thinks we should be matching film and press gain. He thinks that it produces richer, fuller printing. That may be true but designers don't consider that anymore (if they ever did). They expect that their 50% will be 50% and so on.

I can tell you if you have a 50% in the file and 50% on the plate you ain't getting a 50% on any kind of paper. ALL paper shows dot gain. The better coated stocks don't show nearly as much as something like newsprint but they still have some gain. So if your file has 50% and you want 50% on paper you can't put a 50% dot on plate. It's just impossible.

Furthermore, you START with 50 on the plate to know you're neutral. After taking readings off the press sheet, you will adjust for gain and loss. Just to reiterate.

Quote from: Farabomb on November 13, 2014, 03:40:27 PM

Quote from: Joe on November 13, 2014, 03:33:10 PM

Quote from: Farabomb on November 13, 2014, 02:23:02 PMThat's what I was thinking. You have to cut on the plate to account for gain on press. You make all the values 2%-98% read that on the sheet at normal running densities with your house stock, chemical, ink... what you normally use day to day. The designer is expecting a 50% to be a 50% and designs accordingly.

After you have the plate curve set to produce this you make a profile for the proofer to chase what the press delivers with the linear plate. If everything is producing the values correctly you have a target to hit.

This will be a hard sell to the powers that be here. He still thinks we should be matching film and press gain. He thinks that it produces richer, fuller printing. That may be true but designers don't consider that anymore (if they ever did). They expect that their 50% will be 50% and so on.

I can tell you if you have a 50% in the file and 50% on the plate you ain't getting a 50% on any kind of paper. ALL paper shows dot gain. The better coated stocks don't show nearly as much as something like newsprint but they still have some gain. So if your file has 50% and you want 50% on paper you can't put a 50% dot on plate. It's just impossible.

Exactly, you have to make a curve that cuts the plate to create less than a 50% dot so that when it's laid down on the stock the resulting image on the printed piece is 50%.

I didn't realize newsprint has that much gain. We mainly use coated stock here, with some offset here and there.

Like a Sharpie on toilet paper.

It can be wildly different per unit too. I look at my curves for our heatset web and it looks like the yellow unit needs maintenance or something.

Quote from: Farabomb on November 13, 2014, 03:40:27 PMI didn't realize newsprint has that much gain. We mainly use coated stock here, with some offset here and there.

Yeah, the 22# newsprint we use for yellow pages is like a sponge. It is just a cut above the toilet paper they put in the bathrooms.

Quote from: Ear on November 13, 2014, 03:44:19 PMIt can be wildly different per unit too. I look at my curves for our heatset web and it looks like the yellow unit needs maintenance or something.

We cut our yellow plate back less than the magenta and cyan. For a couple of stocks we don't even cut the yellow back.

Our shop has poor climate control, in the pressroom. We have big swamp cooler fans for summer and a gas heater for winter but it is a huge warehouse. We switch inks per season... high-tac in summer, because the ink gets soupy in the heat and low-tac in the winter, so it doesn't turn solid. This has a big effect on my curves, when the seasons change.

So I've attached my calibrations settings for my supposedly linear plates.  However, they are not coming out linear.  They read about the same as the did before I added any type of plate curve.  Are there other settings that I need to be concerned with?  Or should I get a 50/50 plate with these settings?  Assuming my curve is correct.  I've double checked my curve and that seems to be correct.  

You should be able to see your adjustments upon burning the next plate, after they are applied.

I'm not familiar with that interface. I'm using Calibration Manager. Typically, I make my adjustments and do a test exposure straight out of Calibration Manager. Once I have it dialed in, I save it and apply it to the media profile. Same with the press curves.

That screen looks like nothing I have seen in Prinergy. Are you running Connect or Evo?