Output file for die maker

[DigitalCrapShoveler]

It is all about the Illustrator. I don't know that I have ever seen a die-line come in correct from a client. Especially for things like presentation folders, where you leave one edge uncut and bleed the cuts so you can do the final trim on the straight-knife. Details that seem small but are huge for finishing. Moving intersections a RCH so they don't bind and buckle, etc...

Having art placed on a correct, approved dieline file is a necessity for us as all we produce is folding cartons. One of the only things we absolutely force on clients is that they have to use an approved dieline file that is produced by our in-house CAD dept. We produce cut, folded and glued carton samples for the client to approve first. Once they have approved that, we supply a dieline file, usually in .ai format, for them to use. Once in a while we will get a job done by a client's previous supplier that requires us to pull the dieline from and give to our CAD dept, but CAD will take either an .ai or eps file. Diemakers usually prefer .eps because it imports universally into most die software like Cimex or Artios. Our CAD guy can be pretty creative with what he gets supplied so he doesn't have to call us too often.

I do A LOT of boxes here. One thing I have no control over is, I do not have a CAD department. Since we do printing for a few of the in town folding carton companies, it is supposed to go through them to make sure the artists get the correct dies and build their art from it. I've seen way too many times instances where the artist takes liberties with the die and modifies it to fit their art, instead of the other way around. I usually catch it when I get the die-makers multi-up template. At that point, I have to fit the art and make it work.

Very frustrating. People don't seem to get that dies are created a very specific way, engineered a specific way and changing them defeats the whole purpose.

I have a pocket schedule holder I am currently working on. It's been the same die for several years. I have given the die to the artist every year for at least 5 years. I get it back this year, and an outside agency made the wonderful decision to stretch the die out to fit their art, effectively making the whole carton unusable. The schedule that fits inside it, is way too small to fit snuggly within. I kicked it back and got nothing but attitude for doing my job, Guess who had to fix it all? Did I even get a thanks? You tell me.

[andyfest]

I feel your pain in not having an in-house CAD department. If you are doing a lot of carton work it might be worth checking into, esp if you already have a flatbed plotter/cutter for samples and layouts. The Cimex or Artios software is pretty easy to use these days - our CAD operator learned from scratch with no previous CAD or prepress experience. One of the only reasons we are allowed to kick a job back to the CSR is if a client "alters" an approved die that we have supplied to fit their art. It's just too important at the start of a job to have an approved, signed-off sample and use the approved dieline.

[DigitalCrapShoveler]

I actually do have a flatbed plotter/cutter, but we use it to cut press blankets for spot UV. I would not EVEN want to get into all that shit. We do enough boxes to make me crazy, but not enough to justify checking work for folding carton companies that should be doing it on their own.

Here's a great example... we have one company that likes to send a single 1-up die to the artist, who actually does build his job to the right specs. When I get the multi-up die, it's different. When I inquire as to why, from the folding carton company, they tell me they just gave the artist an old layout to get the wheels rolling. I tell them that i will have to modify the art, sometimes pretty drastically, and what do they tell me? Go ahead and adjust it. We don't want to tell the artist, it already had to go through 25 people to get approved.

WHAT?!?

So, you think if the customer is that picky, me changing their art around isn't something their going to notice? They don't. I've been on several press checks where I get thrown under the bus.

I'm sorry I'm being chatty, but another good one...

I got this box in we have printed at least 50 times as a straight reprint. I guess another company acquires this particular box and gives it to some "expert" packaging design company that gloats about how precise they are and what they can do for you for maximum effect. They take a perfectly good design and modify it adding a spot black to an already 5 color job, making it 6 color. I get the job in and start noticing all the problems this spot black is going to cause on press. When I ask about it, I get the usual, "do what we ask" crap, these guys are experts. Fast forward a full month and after 20 e-mails, screenshots with call-out and TONS of explaining, I get them to FINALLY see I am right and what they are trying to do is completely stupid and a lot more costly.

I am just a Prepress guy... I am surrounded by fools.

[Farabomb]

"I've been doing this for 30 years!"

That doesn't mean you are doing it right.

Most of my customers aren't that stupid. I did have one that kept changing the die on a job... up until they porked a 1 mil piece order because they just assumed and never checked it.

[DigitalCrapShoveler]

I don't think most of my customers are stupid either...

When presented this scenario, who is really the dumb ass:

"Bob, we need you to build this box. Don't worry about making sure everything is on the level, we'll have the printer do it, they don't charge for it anyway. So, you finish up and go on vacation..."

When Prepress time is considered a "soft cost" and is the first to get wiped off the bill to make the quote match the final bill, it's a wonder we are still in business. I have been keeping track of cost analysis for the past 2 months. Just as an example, in 2 months time, over 15K has been pissed out the window in computer time alone.

What management doesn't see, is the snow-ball effect this is making. When customers start to not care about doing their job to it's completion, knowing we will do it as a service and not be billed, these same customers will start taking advantage of it. When you have several thousand customers, you can see where this leads. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize why we are killing ourselves in here and all for free.

To upper-management and auditors we are essentially "button pushers" because they don't see the actual numbers we produce and the money middle-management pisses away to make the customer and Sales Puke happy. Things like no OT and no raises come into play. To them, we are already overpaid because customers keep sending jobs in here and obviously they are "perfect" because we aren't charging them anything to fix them.

[Joe]

To them, we are already overpaid because customers keep sending jobs in here and obviously they are "perfect" because we aren't charging them anything to fix them.

Truer words have never been spoken.

[PrepressCrapFixer]

Oh man, I have to deal with this same kind of crap.  It's amazing to me how often I have to do some sort of modification to a file to make it press ready.  I spend so much time under the Bus that all I smell is diesel fumes all the time.

[Farabomb]

I'm now putting everything little dumb thing I have to do to the file down on the AA sheet. The boss only remembers that job I tuned around in a hour because the files were decent. I'm trying to make sure he knows who's the really bad offenders. It's on him if he charges and I'm pretty sure he does but DCS is right. Prepress is the first charge to be wiped if the customer starts bitching.

[Ear]

I spend so much time under the Bus that all I smell is diesel fumes all the time.

haahaaa maybe you should be PrepressBusFixer

[Ear]

"I've been doing this for 30 years!"

That doesn't mean you are doing it right.

Right?!? FFS!

I had someone say that exact thing to me the other day (fairly often actually). I said, "dude, that's not something to brag about".

[andyfest]

"Here's a great example... we have one company that likes to send a single 1-up die to the artist, who actually does build his job to the right specs. When I get the multi-up die, it's different. When I inquire as to why, from the folding carton company, they tell me they just gave the artist an old layout to get the wheels rolling."

Maybe because of the nature of our work (pharma), there are a lot more controls in place. If a die is modified, the previous version is replaced with a new version, and given a new CAD number so it cannot be mixed up with the old die. Knowingly contravening the pharma control procedures is grounds for dismissal here.

"What management doesn't see, is the snow-ball effect this is making. When customers start to not care about doing their job to it's completion, knowing we will do it as a service and not be billed, these same customers will start taking advantage of it."

Same reason our prepress billings have been dropping steadily for the past few years. Probably the same everywhere. Pukes and owners now see us merely as a value-added service. I know what it costs to run our prepress department, both in terms of fixed costs, time and material, and these costs are not reflected in the billing for our services. Too often a "flat" rate for prepress services is applied to make negotiations with new clients "easier" for highly paid pukes.

[Farabomb]

Oh, speaking of diecutters I just loaded up 8 skids of paper onto their truck. We had to rerun a job because they diecut the whole thing before checking if they had the correct die. Well over a million pieces. They went to do the inserting of the second element and noticed their mistake.

[DigitalCrapShoveler]

"Here's a great example... we have one company that likes to send a single 1-up die to the artist, who actually does build his job to the right specs. When I get the multi-up die, it's different. When I inquire as to why, from the folding carton company, they tell me they just gave the artist an old layout to get the wheels rolling."

Maybe because of the nature of our work (pharma), there are a lot more controls in place. If a die is modified, the previous version is replaced with a new version, and given a new CAD number so it cannot be mixed up with the old die. Knowingly contravening the pharma control procedures is grounds for dismissal here.

"What management doesn't see, is the snow-ball effect this is making. When customers start to not care about doing their job to it's completion, knowing we will do it as a service and not be billed, these same customers will start taking advantage of it."

Same reason our prepress billings have been dropping steadily for the past few years. Probably the same everywhere. Pukes and owners now see us merely as a value-added service. I know what it costs to run our prepress department, both in terms of fixed costs, time and material, and these costs are not reflected in the billing for our services. Too often a "flat" rate for prepress services is applied to make negotiations with new clients "easier" for highly paid pukes.

Yep, I do believe this is the case for many a job. It's also the reason we don't get paid as well as we did 20 years ago.

[andyfest]

Oh, speaking of diecutters I just loaded up 8 skids of paper onto their truck. We had to rerun a job because they diecut the whole thing before checking if they had the correct die. Well over a million pieces. They went to do the inserting of the second element and noticed their mistake.

Hell, we just threw out 100,000 cartons because the CSR put an incorrect ink spec on the production order and the press followed the spec, and that happens a fair bit in our production plant - the worldwide web of waste. No accountability or consequences for the CSR at all. Head office won't spend a few thousand on updating our software or hardware, but is willing to spend $300,000 on an image scanner for the press that they never used in ten f***ing years!! Building was struck by lightning a couple of years ago and fried the scanner, so there went $300K up in smoke. And on and on....

[Joe]

Remember the old term "camera ready artwork"? I've noticed over the last couple of years that has changed to "Press ready PDF". That is how every quote here is done. They think if it is a PDF it is ready for the press. Nothing ever has to be done to the file because it is "press ready". Bullshit! It ain't press ready until I (prepress) is done with it! You can talk to the salesman until you are blue in the face about problems with customer files. All they know is that it is a PDF so it is "press ready". End of story.