So it's come down to financing. As long as we can get credit, we will be a high end commercial printer with a brand spanking new digital department.
So, words of advise? Any general suggestions? What to be ready for, words of advise implementing this new workflow.
Probably ending up with a Xerox 800 and will be learning VDP from scratch and learning what/how to send files to this beast.
One thing I did like, the Xerox 800 uses the Adobe Print Engine 2.1 (or 2.0, can't remember). So it should handle the PDF files very similarly to the way Prinergy does, right? Please!
sidebar - was reading a number of threads about jpg compression. The storefront peeps are trying to convince me jpg compression is safe. Anyone using it successfully? Maybe with jpg 2000 it's more stable?
We run a streamlined JPG workflow here. Makes pages "pop". :sarcasm:
yeah gnubler, I was reading your post earlier. Did you every get the compression to behave?
Are you talking about transparency & flattening? That doesn't involve JPGs, the Walmart of file formats amongst customers. My RIP on the digital color machine can't handle transparency with spot colors (white boxes, etc).
2 different question. Jpg compression seems to be the devil. And I know transparencies are also devilish, but I thought since the 800 uses the Adobe PDF Print Engine it won't be flattening the files, correct?
JPGs are meant for the innertubes. NOT printing.
The masses love JPGs because it's all they know. I refuse to even print them. Dirty. Batch resave as TIFFs.
Quote from: Aaron on March 03, 2011, 03:05:19 PMSo it's come down to financing. As long as we can get credit, we will be a high end commercial printer with a brand spanking new digital department.
So, words of advise? Any general suggestions? What to be ready for, words of advise implementing this new workflow.
Probably ending up with a Xerox 800 and will be learning VDP from scratch and learning what/how to send files to this beast.
One thing I did like, the Xerox 800 uses the Adobe Print Engine 2.1 (or 2.0, can't remember). So it should handle the PDF files very similarly to the way Prinergy does, right? Please!
sidebar - was reading a number of threads about jpg compression. The storefront peeps are trying to convince me jpg compression is safe. Anyone using it successfully? Maybe with jpg 2000 it's more stable?
APPE will bomb if it runs across a PDF that has an image that is using JPEG 2000 compression. EVERY time.
No, JPEG compression is not OK. Not even the high quality one. Screw the storefront peeps and use ZIP compression for PDF's.
Why does it bomb? Curious.
It bombs when it tries to trap it. Of course with digital you don't absolutely need trap so it may not be an issue. And it may only be a problem with the Kodak RIP because Kodak acknowledges it is a known issue in Prinergy.
Interesting. Guess I will stay away from jpg compression all together. Like I have been doing. But the Storefront guys have a point. If customer are going to be ordering through this system and uploading files, ZIP compression really doesn't reduce the file size much. They are going to be sending rather large files. Oh well.
As for the APPE question, I am correct right? If the digital press print engine is the APPE, I shouldn't have transparency issues, as long as the customer prepares the pdf correctly and doesn't flatten the file.
whenever I have a transparency issue with the color copier
I output from indesign high res trans flattener, it works
someone might be able to say why it works. tee hee
Quote from: Aaron on March 04, 2011, 07:43:11 AM"I shouldn't have transparency issues, as long as the customer prepares the pdf correctly and doesn't flatten the file."
:lmao:
good luck with those customers.... i would not bank your success on the skill levels of your clients.
Quote from: Aaron on March 04, 2011, 07:43:11 AMInteresting. Guess I will stay away from jpg compression all together. Like I have been doing. But the Storefront guys have a point. If customer are going to be ordering through this system and uploading files, ZIP compression really doesn't reduce the file size much. They are going to be sending rather large files. Oh well.
As for the APPE question, I am correct right? If the digital press print engine is the APPE, I shouldn't have transparency issues, as long as the customer prepares the pdf correctly and doesn't flatten the file.
I wish it were that easy. I don't have many issues with transparency with APPE but something will crop up every now and then. Also we don't flatten until the colors are separated and screened. Your flattening will be done to a composite file so I wouldn't declare that you will never see transparency issues. Hell, I see transparency issue at the digital copier on files that have already been flattened. The only guarantee is that issues will pop up. None of this crap works as the salesman tells you it will.
Quote from: Joe on March 04, 2011, 11:45:25 AMNone of this crap works as the salesman tells you it will.
Really? :laugh:
Quote from: gnubler on March 04, 2011, 11:50:19 AMQuote from: Joe on March 04, 2011, 11:45:25 AMNone of this crap works as the salesman tells you it will.
Really? :laugh:
"its all drag and drop"
Quote from: gnubler on March 04, 2011, 11:50:19 AMQuote from: Joe on March 04, 2011, 11:45:25 AMNone of this crap works as the salesman tells you it will.
Really? :laugh:
Pretty damned profound today aren't I?
LOL, you cynical old bastards. :kiss:
old?
where...
oh you mean Joe, nvm
Quote from: gnubler on March 04, 2011, 12:04:16 PMLOL, you cynical old bastards. :kiss:
That will be the name of the movie they do about me. Like an updated Grumpy Old Men.
I'll be in the movie, too.
Quote from: Joe on March 03, 2011, 09:25:40 PMIt bombs when it tries to trap it. Of course with digital you don't absolutely need trap so it may not be an issue. And it may only be a problem with the Kodak RIP because Kodak acknowledges it is a known issue in Prinergy.
Hey Joe, I think I'm getting a bit confused. Where does the APPE reside in a digital workflow? The controller (Fiery) or devise (Xerox 800 or Konica C8000)? It would be the controller, correct? The devise just spits out whatever is sent to it.
APPE is the RIP so yes, the controller but I'm pretty sure you won't find one with the name Fiery on it. You can get the digital option for Prinergy to feed a digital copier but it's big bucks. We did not get it. We just feed the Fiery and pray.
That's what I thought. But I thought there was word on the street that EFI was about to announce the new release of Fiery and it was using the APPE 2.1.
Yeah thought about the digital module of Prinergy too. Well we thought about it until we saw the price tag. And since we are leaning toward a Fiery instead of a Creo box, the digital module wouldn't do anything with the Fiery. In researching Web-to-print solutions, EFI's DSF would best integrate with our MIS (ePace) and in that case would work best with an EFI Fiery box.
Although, don't you just use hot folder in either case?
Anyone out there using EFI DSF?
If you're planning to run any variable data jobs on the new press keep in mind the Fiery does offer built in VDP tools while the Creo box does not. We ended up with the Creo and had to purchase FusionPro ($700) to do the variable data work.
interesting. But the Creo box processes VDP faster, right?
Quote from: Aaron on March 16, 2011, 09:44:37 AMThat's what I thought. But I thought there was word on the street that EFI was about to announce the new release of Fiery and it was using the APPE 2.1.
Yeah thought about the digital module of Prinergy too. Well we thought about it until we saw the price tag. And since we are leaning toward a Fiery instead of a Creo box, the digital module wouldn't do anything with the Fiery. In researching Web-to-print solutions, EFI's DSF would best integrate with our MIS (ePace) and in that case would work best with an EFI Fiery box.
Although, don't you just use hot folder in either case?
Anyone out there using EFI DSF?
I hadn't heard about Fiery and an APPE RIP. It's about time though. Yes, with APPE you would need to use hotfolders to keep the transparency although Adobe was tooting their horns at one point that printing from an Adobe application to an APPE printer would not flatten but I haven't heard anything on that since CS4 was released. If true then Kodak must not have supported it because as far as I know Prinergy 5 has no way of "printing" to it.
huh. So even if we had the Prinergy digital add-on and a Creo box in front of the digital copier(and assuming the Creo box used APPE), it would still be "printing" to the device (flattening) out of Prinergy. So would have to drop the pdf in a hot folder to retain the unflattened file anyway. Good to know.
I may be wrong on this but I think with the Prinergy Digital add-on, Prinergy is the RIP feeding the copier. I don't think there would be a need to have a CREO or EFI RIP in between Prinergy and the copier. And I've only had this "sort of" explained to me by a sales rep so it may not be exactly what I think. In fact it probably isn't. But I don't see why you would need 2 APPE rips (Prinergy and a Creo RIP).
Quote from: Aaron on March 16, 2011, 10:02:36 AMinteresting. But the Creo box processes VDP faster, right?
The Creo box accepts VPS files (which is what I generate from FusionPro). It contains all the variable data plus the static image/background. With the Fiery you're somewhat limited because you have to feed it two separate files (I made PDFs to keep file size down). One being the variables, the other being the static background.
I thought Kodak told me it needs a Creo frontend. Oh well. Still looking at both. I'm hoping for Creo really because the of VDP speed. I think XMpie is already going to be purchased so software is taken care of. But thanks for the heads up gnubler
Quote from: Aaron on March 16, 2011, 11:50:54 AMI thought Kodak told me it needs a Creo frontend. Oh well. Still looking at both. I'm hoping for Creo really because the of VDP speed. I think XMpie is already going to be purchased so software is taken care of. But thanks for the heads up gnubler
Well you might be right but I don't see why it would need both Prinergy and a Creo RIP but Kodak is pretty good at creating revenue for themselves.
Adobe is pretty good at that also.
Quote from: Aaron on March 16, 2011, 11:50:54 AMI thought Kodak told me it needs a Creo frontend. Oh well. Still looking at both. I'm hoping for Creo really because the of VDP speed. I think XMpie is already going to be purchased so software is taken care of. But thanks for the heads up gnubler
Which flavor of XMPie are you buying -- uDirect or Personal Effect (with the servers and all)?
Pretty sure the uDirect for now but eventually plan to move to the full boat. Gotta get our feet wet and see how it all works.
Since I was ranting about our Xerox 4110, I will rave here about our KM Bizhub 6500, sure it's a couple of years old. But it blows the pants off the Xerox in reliability and copy quality. It holds color pretty darn well too, until a PM happens. I'm beginning to loathe Xerox.
Quote from: Sabrina The Turd Polisher on March 23, 2011, 09:19:07 AMI'm beginning to loathe Xerox.
We recently got a 6501 to replace our Docucolor. We loathe The Big X also.
I'm quite pleased with the BizHub, except at this moment it's declared that it's out of staples (it's not) and refuses to print anything.
Gotta love the copier reality vs. human reality. Hope you get it fixed soon.
It's fixed. Rep showed up with some staples within an hour or so. X never did that.
Whatever you get, pay attention to the environmental recommendations. I can tell you from experience with Xerox, any humidity or static electricity, and you can forget about smooth sailing with coated stock. I have to babysit the thing because of paper jams and doubles that get through. Doesn't help that the machine's in a corner with little heat or a/c and a leaky roof.