We have been looking at upgrading our impo software, currently looking at Metrix vs upgrading our Preps to v.6, does anybody have experience in both, like coming from a Metrix system to the new Preps 6 software??? Which does better/quicker in flat/sig production?? Preps seems to have taken alot of ideas from the Metrix side for the new version they have.
Also, anybody who has upgraded from Preps 5x to 6, how did the transition go, and did you have any problems training, production issues, etc.
Any feedback is greatly appreciated, we are just trying to figure out which one will be less painful and cause the least downtime, since there is really only two of us doing 4 different job positions and a lot of presses to feed. Thanks........
EW
I have Preps 6 but have not started using it in production. There are still some bugs. I was having problems with it crashing at output if the impo had a partial web. They fixed that in 6.0.1 but there are still issues they are working on with partial webs concerning page numbering. Also I understand there are still some bugs if you need to use the multi-section feature. It's a complete different product than Preps 5 so I'm sure there will be some getting used to the newer version but probably no more than learning a new product. I have never used Metrix myself so that is just a guess.
One of our vendor techs is doing Metrix training. It's pretty powerful, so we're told. Incorporates all sorts of MIS finctions, which is where it's headed, I guess. JDF 'flow and all.
I believe the guy who was the guru behind PREPS, when it was under ScenicSoft, is the architect of Metrix. Guessing he's out from under restriction now. Those sort of guys probably code in their sleep. Lives about an hour south of here...Wollongong way. Ocean view, I bet.
We have Metrix here, and it is "Preps" like, but with some other functionality. Like Frailer said, it's JDF out and all. It works with our MIS system Prisim, estimates are imported into Metrix and the press layout is automatically generated, it then can be automatically manipulated to find the "best" utilization of the paper.
As far as which is better, tough call. Depends on what you need to do. If you need nested packaging impos, metrix won't do that, it only works with squares. So, you'll be looking at "how can we do this" type of workflow.
Preps on the other hand, I haven't used since V3 or 4, can't remember which.
We currently use Esko Suite 7, which can impo virtually everything. Looking into Prinergy, seeing what they have to offer.
I never made the upgrade to Preps 6 from 5 for these reasons:
1) As a Rampage user, Preps 6 eliminates the use of fpos, so now you have to impose a pdf file directly.
2) Hopefully the pdf is trapped, otherwise you have to trap your impo which if something traps wrong makes a whole world of hurt for you. The alternative is to manually hand trap the file, or spend even more $$$ for pdf trapping software, which now eliminates part of the reason why you bought Rampage in the first place (trapping and fpo linking).
3) If you want to change a page later, you have to re-impo the whole pdf, or try to swap out only the affected page, both of which could lead to other errors.
4) pdfs with embedded fonts and images take up more physical hard drive space than ole/fpos, as do the resulting impositions, so I hope you have a large server and don't mind writing extra media, or taking extra time for writing off-site backups.
5) Imposing a pdf is s-l-o-w-e-r-!
6) I think it's a total slap-in-the-face by Kodak to Rampage users, as it is totally geared towards Prinergy now, thus alienating previous users of other systems. They say they are working with Rampage for solutions, but if they really cared to begin with, they wouldn't be working backwards now.
7) They still haven't fixed the dongle driver issue for OS 10.5.8 Leopard on Mac, and I have been pushing this for months now.
We are now looking at making the move the Metrix as well.
I can see why non-prinergy users are not happy with Preps 6 with them removing using FPO's. I have to wonder about the decision making process at Kodak. Anyone using FPO's will either have to stick with 5.3 or look elsewhere. And I have to believe that is a big chunk of their current customers.
With the plate issue we're having, them raising the cost of the service contract and switching our rebate deal to something that saves us nothing we're about to show them the door.
Actually you don't have to impose pdfs in preps 6 with Rampage. Rampage has the ability to create pdf fpo's. It works just the same as eps fpo's.
Still, saving an embedded pdf + native files = more disk space than native files + ole/opi/fpos in eps format, plus the time to create a pdf is longer than exporting to eps. If you're constantly doing postcards or business cards, probably not a big deal, but lately we've been doing a LOT of 300+ page perfect bound books with full color illustrations so the time constraint is a huge factor. And that's if you've got all your $h!+ dialed in; some people still have post script problems with pdf and Preps, usually resulting in font errors.
Clearly Kodak's motivation here is to drive Prinergy sales. They're hoping people will switch over. In all honesty, we ran Kodak thermal plates and chemistry when I first started at this company (2+ years ago) and their prices were higher than Agfa, so we switched. My old shop was also an Agfa shop, but we were IR there. We briefly tried to switch to a cheaper Kodak polymer plate, but the results were ridiculously inconsistent. You could plate a job, and then replate it 5 minutes later, put a dot reader on a solid screen, and get two different values. It was miserable. We ended up going back to Agfa after a month; the cost of replating everything was more than doing it right the first time with Agfa. I can't recommend Kodak for anything.
Yay Rampage! Boo Kodak!
with metrix, we have to make fpos of our pdfs, then "stitch" the fpos together to impose a book. It then gets "assigned" into the imposition as 1 piece. Can't you do the same with Preps?
Thanks to everyone for the replies.
We really don't do nested jobs in Preps or would do them in Metrix if we get it, we use PowerLayout/PowerStepper for any packaging or nesting job work. We would primarily be doing Books, Catalogs, Brochures, etc. in Metrix/Preps, also ganging work.
Davo did the Preps work at ScenicSoft, he is w/ the Metrix crew, but the mastermind behind the Metrix software is Rohan Holt, the one who created UpFront for Creo/Kodak.
Joe, seems you always have issues w/ new software pertaining to your web presses. I originally wanted our company to get a web press in, now I am glad we didn't, since most problems I hear about w/ workflows/impo software stem from companies outputting webs, sorry for the glad it's you not me comment.
We don't use fpo's to run through our workflows, it has been pdf in/pdf out for quite a few years now, we preflight & trap the single one up, then impo the one up to what ever press layout we need. As far as size and speed, we have pretty huge capacity servers here, around 3+TB online at all times, the production servers are pretty fast too, the workflow servers hardly ever get maxed out w/ horsepower, the only time we really see a slow down is when we trap really complex files, we use 4-stage vector trapping so it can slow down from time to time. The backups, we use LTO changers on rotational tape sets, since I have had to take over the IT after our last house clearing, I streamline everything I could to make things easy as possible.
I hear many non-Prinergy users complaining about Kodak shifting from the open, any workflow to a more Prinergy centric Preps and I do see it too, that is also one of the things pushing us to look at other options.
I still have a little while before we make the decision, so have have been working w/ a new demo of Preps 6 I just got from Kodak, some of the things make sense others just leave me confused as to why they did it, it's a totally different beast, that is for sure and one more thing I have to figure out by the seat of my pants.
EW
Quote from: EmptyWords on February 12, 2010, 01:03:42 PMJoe, seems you always have issues w/ new software pertaining to your web presses. I originally wanted our company to get a web press in, now I am glad we didn't, since most problems I hear about w/ workflows/impo software stem from companies outputting webs, sorry for the glad it's you not me comment.
Most of our problems is that we have 4 of them and none of them are the same. And our head press guy is always changing stuff on them. Other than that they are great. :tongue:
Quote from: david on February 11, 2010, 08:00:54 AMWe have Metrix here, and it is "Preps" like, but with some other functionality. Like Frailer said, it's JDF out and all. It works with our MIS system Prisim, estimates are imported into Metrix and the press layout is automatically generated, it then can be automatically manipulated to find the "best" utilization of the paper.
As far as which is better, tough call. Depends on what you need to do. If you need nested packaging impos, metrix won't do that, it only works with squares. So, you'll be looking at "how can we do this" type of workflow.
Preps on the other hand, I haven't used since V3 or 4, can't remember which.
We currently use Esko Suite 7, which can impo virtually everything. Looking into Prinergy, seeing what they have to offer.
Oh btw, I have gotten nested stuff to work in metrix....(pocket folder dies, to be exact)...apparently, it won't "block" out the one behind it as long as you use the hi res pdf (not the fpo)
Quote from: determined on February 12, 2010, 01:57:11 PMOh btw, I have gotten nested stuff to work in metrix....(pocket folder dies, to be exact)...apparently, it won't "block" out the one behind it as long as you use the hi res pdf (not the fpo)
yeah, it can be done, you just have to be "creative" to get it to work right, that's why I hear all the time:
CSR: Metrix is broke, it won't do my layout...
me: what are you doing?
CSR: trying to build this 4 up pocket folder with blah blah blah...
me: give it up, I don't have the time it takes to teach you how to use your brain, we'll do it in Esko.
LOL
We switched from Rampage to Prinergy last year so my memory is fuzzy but I thought you could save an fpo as either a pdf or an eps. Will the fpo pdf not work in Rampage/Preps6?
Quote from: david on February 15, 2010, 08:34:16 AMQuote from: determined on February 12, 2010, 01:57:11 PMOh btw, I have gotten nested stuff to work in metrix....(pocket folder dies, to be exact)...apparently, it won't "block" out the one behind it as long as you use the hi res pdf (not the fpo)
yeah, it can be done, you just have to be "creative" to get it to work right, that's why I hear all the time:
CSR: Metrix is broke, it won't do my layout...
me: what are you doing?
CSR: trying to build this 4 up pocket folder with blah blah blah...
me: give it up, I don't have the time it takes to teach you how to use your brain, we'll do it in Esko.
LOL
yeah, I guess that's the part you can't teach somebody, how to use their brain :rolleyes:
Quote from: johnny_jay on February 15, 2010, 10:03:59 AMWe switched from Rampage to Prinergy last year so my memory is fuzzy but I thought you could save an fpo as either a pdf or an eps. Will the fpo pdf not work in Rampage/Preps6?
Not in Preps 6, no. Preps 5, yes. Preps 6 is jdf or native pdf only.
My issue, as a Rampage user on a sheetfed press, with jdf is that the theory behind jdf is that you make a set of common templates and then utilize them for everything. In reality, this is so far from the truth it is laughable. Basically, unless you're running a ton of repeat work, or you're a 1/4 sheet shop (basically each sheet is maxed out), you're going to need take off bars to take up extra ink for even key settings (this might be a moot point if you're set up for CIP3, but we're not). And unless you know a secret I don't, those take off bars will have to be manually placed and sized according to the parameters of the job.
Also, if you need to apply creep, you'll have to create new templates with custom creep, or make manual adjustments to the original artwork, because the jdf will not allow you to set a unique creep in Rampage. Essentially, jdf is not a timesaver because if you run a lot of unique jobs, you'll need unique jdf templates to strip to for each of them.
I can't see any kind of advantage for the average user to going strictly to jdf with Preps and Rampage (Metrix is jdf so when we make a move in that direction I'll have to adjust accordingly), and I can't see any advantage for the average Rampage user to make the upgrade to Preps 6.
You can see my complete jdf rant here: https://www.b4print.com/kodak-preps/jdf-preps-and-rampage-(oh-my!)/msg91596/#msg91596 or here: http://www.mygua.org/forums/showthread.php?t=3487
Quote from: David on February 11, 2010, 08:00:54 AMWe have Metrix here, and it is "Preps" like, but with some other functionality. Like Frailer said, it's JDF out and all. It works with our MIS system Prisim, estimates are imported into Metrix and the press layout is automatically generated, it then can be automatically manipulated to find the "best" utilization of the paper.
As far as which is better, tough call. Depends on what you need to do. If you need nested packaging impos, metrix won't do that, it only works with squares. So, you'll be looking at "how can we do this" type of workflow.
Preps on the other hand, I haven't used since V3 or 4, can't remember which.
We currently use Esko Suite 7, which can impo virtually everything. Looking into Prinergy, seeing what they have to offer.
David, we've been feeding Preps from UpFront forever.
We have started training videos and playing with Metrix.
My question right now is when you export jdf from Metrix, can you import to Preps (Prinergy here btw) like we do with upfront?
We are interested in prepress doing the prepress, not estimators and planners...
Thanks in advance 8)
Switched from Esko Nexus and Preps 5 I think it was at the time, to Kodak Prinergy and now Preps 9 and also InSite Prepress Portal back in 2017.
Best decision we ever made as far as our front end workflow goes.
I know Kodak is expensive with the monthly subscriptions and the support costs but we really have no complaints other than how slow Kodak is responding every year to macOS updates. I find their support to be very responsive.
Having Prinergy and Preps connected the way Kodak does is a wonderful thing.
We have almost doubled our sales since 2017 and we have had to hire no one in prepress and we work almost zero OT.
I attribute almost all of that to having Prinergy and Preps and Insite all working together...to me there is no other way to go.
The ROI has been great from that standpoint alone.
Metrix was tempting back in 2017 because we do use EFI Pace as our MIS but i was not impressed by the demo we had with EFI at the time and all of our prepress guys including myself were Preps users.
Kodak plates on the other hand was another story entirely....long story short...we now use Heidelberg plates and a Suprasetter CTP.
Yes, we run Prinergy 9 and Preps.
We do a lot of book work and UpFront is wonderful for that, and we import into workshop and manipulate with Preps.
Our fear of losing Upfront grows yearly, it is long past end of life, we are trying to switch to Metrix before we lose it.
We don't want estimators or planners assigning content and exporting imposed pdfs from Metrix.
We want to do the prepress in prepress, add marks, shingle for creep, etc... etc... and control the assignment of refined pdfs. This is what we do now.
When we export jdf from metrix, we see it, and when I import into Prinergy it's there... but when I open it with Preps, there is no ".job"... like no .tpl... only pages (run list) in the pages tab. When I open the signature in Preps, it's empty.
We're missing something I reckon... I hope...
the training video we're watching had the awful words "metrix replacing preps" and surely that can't be right.
We're not trying to redo the whole shop's workflow, just want a planning solution that's good with bookwork like upfront.
I may be lost here but why do you think you need Metrix rather than just using Preps that you are using now. What is UpFront doing that Preps won't do?
Matrix can do layouts based on quantities and maximizing paper usage. Basically there would be minimal scrap paper after the run, which saved a ton of money on the paper, and the ink on press.
Example, we used to do Shelf cards for Blockbuster (remember the video store). These were the cards that were behind the videos so when the videos were gone, you would see the card. Sometimes they needed 100 of 1 video card, 500 of another, 1500 of another, etc. Most would think that you would just gang the one card on one layout and just run till you hit qty, most times you had tons of overs.
Matrix would calculate and spread out over multiple sigs different cards to minimize the number of press sheets to get qty on all the various cards. At the height of the video craze, we were doing these by the millions, had one prepress guy dedicated specifically with dealing directly with the customer and matching the layouts to each PO. It would also set it up the JDF so this could go to the bindery for trimming, the layout was fed to the online cutter and the operator did not have to do the programming for bizarre cuts.
All automated, happens quite quickly when it was working.
But, this was in 2010, Blockbuster went out of business, Williamson Printing went on the chopping block (became Quad), never used it after that.
That's a fair question Joe. Upfront builds and keeps a database of the equipment and materials and will save you from yourself. It is modular and when you make a preferred fold plan, signature plan, layout plan, etc... it will get fed to you in the future when you do a similar job. It will filter you from doing impossible things. Our planner has learned Preps second hand from prepress and can use it but is a power user of UpFront with first hand training from Patrick @ Kodak back in the day so she is comfortable with it.
Quote from: David on February 24, 2023, 03:09:44 PMMatrix can do layouts based on quantities and maximizing paper usage. Basically there would be minimal scrap paper after the run, which saved a ton of money on the paper, and the ink on press.
Example, we used to do Shelf cards for Blockbuster (remember the video store). These were the cards that were behind the videos so when the videos were gone, you would see the card. Sometimes they needed 100 of 1 video card, 500 of another, 1500 of another, etc. Most would think that you would just gang the one card on one layout and just run till you hit qty, most times you had tons of overs.
Matrix would calculate and spread out over multiple sigs different cards to minimize the number of press sheets to get qty on all the various cards. At the height of the video craze, we were doing these by the millions, had one prepress guy dedicated specifically with dealing directly with the customer and matching the layouts to each PO. It would also set it up the JDF so this could go to the bindery for trimming, the layout was fed to the online cutter and the operator did not have to do the programming for bizarre cuts.
All automated, happens quite quickly when it was working.
But, this was in 2010, Blockbuster went out of business, Williamson Printing went on the chopping block (became Quad), never used it after that.
Can't you do the same thing with the Preps AutoGang feature?
Also, we have a lot of custom touches.... Komori color bars, form IDs for bindery and on and on...
We want to keep all of that responsibility and not add it to planning's shoulders.
So that's also why the planning software-to-Preps desire.
Forgive any ignorance on my part as well, we are watching a few videos instead of paying $$$ for actual Metrix training.
Quote from: born2print on February 24, 2023, 03:16:04 PMAlso, we have a lot of custom touches.... Komori color bars, form IDs for bindery and on and on...
We want to keep all of that responsibility and not add it to planning's shoulders.
So that's also why the planning software-to-Preps desire.
We always did all of that in prepress. We had no planning department. ;D
And for perspective, planning used to number dummies, then unfold and hand-draw layouts. Then we would do that work all over again in Preps so you can imaging what a Godsend Upfront was and why we are so fond of it.
Quote from: born2print on February 24, 2023, 03:17:33 PMForgive any ignorance on my part as well, we are watching a few videos instead of paying $$$ for actual Metrix training.
It is probably my ignorance here. I guess I didn't miss something we never had.
Quote from: Joe on February 24, 2023, 03:18:21 PMQuote from: born2print on February 24, 2023, 03:16:04 PMAlso, we have a lot of custom touches.... Komori color bars, form IDs for bindery and on and on...
We want to keep all of that responsibility and not add it to planning's shoulders.
So that's also why the planning software-to-Preps desire.
We always did all of that in prepress. We had no planning department. ;D
Exactly, it seems we are odd that we still compartmentalize estimating, planning and prepress.
But we can "meet it or beat it" which you can't do if only 1 brain works on it.
Quote from: born2print on February 24, 2023, 03:19:06 PMAnd for perspective, planning used to number dummies, then unfold and hand-draw layouts. Then we would do that work all over again in Preps so you can imaging what a Godsend Upfront was and why we are so fond of it.
We did have a lot of dummies. We called them salesmen though.
Anyhow, I appreciate all of your thoughts.
I just need to get over this hurdle if it is possible.
Can you export from Metrix = yes
can you import into Workshop = yes
can you open the impo and manipulate with Preps and print back into Prinergy???????
We never in a million years would want estimators/planners or CSR's anywhere near any prepress functions!!
Each dept. needs to stay in there in lane except for when collaboration is necessary for the occasional job that is not the norm.
Quote from: born2print on February 24, 2023, 03:22:44 PMAnyhow, I appreciate all of your thoughts.
I just need to get over this hurdle if it is possible.
Can you export from Metrix = yes
can you import into Workshop = yes
can you open the impo and manipulate with Preps and print back into Prinergy???????
Once you import into Prinergy how are you trying to open the impo and manipulate with Preps? By opening it from within Preps? Or opening it via Prinergy into Preps. It seems to me the latter option should work but I have no experience in doing it. Just a guess from a former Prinergy prepress person. I probably shouldn't even try to get in these discussions anymore. :-X
Open via Prinergy into Preps.
And I agree it should work lol
And it does open, there's just no content at this point of our testing.
ugh so why is the layout empty?
There's pages
There's a signature
Why no layout? aka press run
Quote from: born2print on February 24, 2023, 03:17:33 PMForgive any ignorance on my part as well, we are watching a few videos instead of paying $$$ for actual Metrix training.
I hope that works out, it's a pretty complex bit o' software.
If I remember correctly, we had them come to the plant and train a bunch of planners (they were CSRs who had a background in manually making press layouts). When they learned this, they life was wayyy simpler and less prone to layout mistakes (usually math not adding up correctly).
Quote from: born2print on February 24, 2023, 03:34:05 PMugh so why is the layout empty?
I believe there is a setting in Metrix that you had to do in order to get it to come out right, my mind is fuzzy, but I do remember going thru several windows of BS before it's exported out.
Quote from: born2print on February 24, 2023, 03:34:52 PMThere's pages
There's a signature
Why no layout? aka press run
In the image of your press runs list it shows the name of a template. Is it possible that template isn't existing in Preps. If so you may be missing something in the export of the JDF from Metrix. Who is making the impo in Metrix?
I still think you would be better off without Metrix. ;D
That is what it seems like, I open templates and there is not one for this test job.
I know when you export from UpFront, you tell it .job and .tpl
so maybe we need to look closer at what we're exporting from Metrix... .jdf yeah but what other boxes should be checked!
lol, Who? the planner... aka my wife :rotf: :rotf:
Quote from: Joe on February 24, 2023, 03:49:05 PMI still think you would be better off without Metrix. ;D
Amen, we love where we're at, but UF is EOL a long time ago so we're on borrowed time
Quote from: born2print on February 24, 2023, 03:51:31 PMThat is what it seems like, I open templates and there is not one for this test job.
I know when you export from UpFront, you tell it .job and .tpl
so maybe we need to look closer at what we're exporting from Metrix... .jdf yeah but what other boxes should be checked!
lol, Who? the planner... aka my wife :rotf: :rotf:
How about in the Prinergy job folder for the template. Nothing there?
Blame everything on the wife. I never had that option! ;D
ok, gonna kick it around some more (Metrix, not my wife) and I will report back.
Well crap, the answer turns out to be a heartbreak.
It is not a glitch, you cannot open work from Metrix with Preps.
In other words, Metrix is a "replacement" for Preps.
Bullshit.
I don't get it, an ancient product like UpFront plays nice... Metrix is all about JDF and what not... why on Earth would there need to be LESS ability with this newer software.
Bloody typical anymore, everything is a downgrade.
So to give planning a wonderful tool that they have enjoyed for a decade, we either need to dump all of our marks, creep, etc... etc... on them so they can do all our work for us
OR
We need to buy a fistful of seats and retrain the whole shop of expert Preps users on Metrix instead.
/rant
My vote is keep an old PC or two running UpFront just long enough until we retire and forget Metrix.
Quote from: born2print on March 07, 2023, 09:58:15 AMMy vote is keep an old PC or two running UpFront just long enough until we retire and forget Metrix.
If I had a vote that would be my vote too. ;D
if it ain't broke...
I used to keep an old XP machine running on the side for sending to Solaris on SmartBoard. No other version of Windows could run it; it was an imposition software that allowed for programming to send to Solaris (tabs, colored sheets, etc.) similar to Fiery Command Work Station, but not as intelligent, despite the name.