Okay, so I got this guy that comes in once a month, cool dude. He publishes a local magazine that appeals to college kids. Kind of a "what's hip" on the college scene bullshit. Anyhoo, the guy is using a freelancer that is okay, but makes some pretty sloppy mistakes. After a few months, I finally got this nitwit Desinger doing things by the book. The last few issues have been pretty breezy... then the publisher dude calls me.
"Hey man, I was wondering? I just got a new MacBook Pro, with all the bells and whistles. I bought the Adobe Premium Creative Suite 4, and I need you to hook me up."
I ask him does he need me to install software, give him some tips, I'm clueless here man, what do you want from me?
"I need you to completely train me to create my magazine, I mean all of it, Macs, Prepress, all the Adobe shit, ALL OF IT. I trust you and if you will do it, I would be honored. Oh, and I'll pay you."
Normally, I would not do it. I am not one that likes giving away all my secrets and knowledge that took me almost two decades to amass, but, I need the cash, so I'm selling out.
The guy wants to meet twice a week for a few hours. I do freelance and have a pay scale I use, but teaching is something I normally only do in a work environment. I am not concerned if I can do it, I just want to be fair.
What should I charge PER hour? I'm going to do it regardless, but if you had to do it, what would be the very lowest you would go, AND then what's fair?
So 2 prices here, get it?
As always, I am in your debt.
P.S. The guy is legit and NOT a homosexual.
Well, first of all - WHY CAN'T HE TEACH HIMSELF?? Shit, most of us did. Does he not want to buy a few manuals and just jump in?
Second, do you think he'll "get it"? Is he capable and truly willing to learn. I guess he is if you accepted the offer. Do you get along with him ok?
I'd charge $25 an hour. You just get to sit there for a few hours and tell him what to do, what not to do. Maybe he'll throw in some free beer, too.
I'm also going to be training someone to use InDesign here pretty soon, but I'm trading out for food, not cash. "Will do it in Adobe for food" :laugh: (It's for a local grocery I volunteer with)
You can give a man a fishing pole, and yet you will not be able to teach the man to most effectively pull the lure. It takes practice.
:ninja2: :ninja2:
Yeah. I mean, he'd be better off hitting the books himself, just jumping in and learning it himself. He can keep a list of things that he has questions about or is struggling with and then go over that with you. There's so many free tutes online...I think even the Adobe install disks have some sort of Beginner's Tutorial, no?
The guy is clueless, which means he is not tainted by actual schooling. I think it will be gravy. He is doing a swimsuit edition in 2 months. Featuring the models he uses in his magazine. I almost chew my own tongue off when I think about it. I offered my services as "oil boy," so we'll see if that pans out. :evil:
That is true BTW. Okay, so the guy is not as motivated as you or even PB, but if the guy wants to throw cash my way, does it really matter? I sit there like Gnub said and give him shit to do and joke about my pantless proofing days... no problem. $25 seems a wee bit on the low side, but I suppose I would do it. I am a whore.
Quote from: DigitalCrapShoveler on April 03, 2009, 09:18:15 PMThe guy is clueless, which means he is not tainted by actual schooling. I think it will be gravy. He is doing a swimsuit edition in 2 months. Featuring the models he uses in his magazine. I almost chew my own tongue off when I think about it. I offered my services as "oil boy," so we'll see if that pans out. :evil:
That is true BTW. Okay, so the guy is not as motivated as you or even PB, but if the guy wants to throw cash my way, does it really matter? I sit there like Gnub said and give him shit to do and joke about my pantless proofing days... no problem. $25 seems a wee bit on the low side, but I suppose I would do it. I am a whore.
I would think that to be on the low end too, but really depends on the market. LA would not be same as North Dakota.
Yes, I agree. Would what I make in OT be asking too little/too much? I would do it for work?
I guess only you knows what you (and your time) is worth. Essentially what you're doing is tutoring. Maybe take a peek on craigslist or something and see what other tutors are charging for 1-on-1 sessions.
To me, $25/hr is high. But I'm pretty cheap and I live in a ghetto and don't have any bills.
it seems like it would be an experience, and if the dude seems worthy and you think he'll actually learn, why not? on the low end id charge $30/hr, (basing it on its on top of my 40+ hour work week, so i should be making time and a half min.), on the upper maybe $40-50. I try to get $50 an hour for design work- i dont enjoy designing for others so it should be worth my while.
$25 an hour is way too low. I wouldn't even consider anything less than $45 - $50 per hour. The main thing for me is that you are going to be doing it in your "away from your real job" hours. I value my away time and would need around double time. What would it cost him to take classes at the local juco and not get near the quality of information that he would get with you? You've worked hard for your knowledge and used a lot of your personal time to learn this shit. I know you did. All good prepress people did. So don't go giving it away. If he thinks that is too much he can hit the road.
Here's a compromise, from someone who's been on a steep curve in the past 2 years. Tell the guy it's gonna be an ongoing process; it'll take time; (years?), before he gets good enough to output stuff that will pass muster. Depending on his aptitude/inclination, of course.
It'll be painful for you doing this; has that whiff from your description. Tell him you'll give him 2x1 hour sessions to get him in at the basic level...like basic. Suggest he sign up with lynda.com. Or at the very least, the free Adobe online Flash tutes, which are really good, and repurposed from lynda.com anyway. Get him to go through a set number to a certain level; then suggest he book you for another 2x1 hours to consolidate,
Reassess from there.
And for your services; I'm with Joe....$50 /hour min. US$, not OzPesos. :laugh:
...there's always prepresstraining.com; the advantage with them is they have an interactive setup, where you click on stuff, under instruction, before you can move on to the next step. It's a better reinforcer than straight-up viewing; but both types are good.
That stuff is big bang-for-buck, IMO. I got up and running in DynaStrip with PPT. No mean feat. :evil:
But also it's not just pp stuff on PPT. There's general Adobe stuff, from novice up. Better that nice bloke with the Wisconsin accent telling him to "Now click on the Direct Select Tool"...than you doing that stuff.
That'd be crazy... for him and you. :sleepy: About $300 for access to the full Library. 24/7; whenever the mood strikes. And make sure he subscribes to InDesign Magazine.
...er shit, that's not a little input, that's a lot. I'll shaddup now. :azn:
i used to give guitar lessons for walking around money at $30 a lesson (half hour). maybe you can use examples like that as proof of going rates and ask for $50 (or whatever) an hour. you can always negotiate down but you might as well shoot for the moon. using the guitar analogy again, i would stress the amount of time you have in service and let him know it won't happen overnight. plus, tell him what it would cost if he did it himself, submitted it to your shop and they charged him for your time to fix all his rookie mistakes. those lessons would start looking really economical...
All pretty common sense solutions. Thank you all for your highly valued input. I do feel more confident going into this with your advice in pocket. My deepest appreciation.
I meet tomorrow with him for our first lesson. Wish me luck.
Good luck. Like agent_orange said, this is a tutelage session(s). Check out your area and see what is common-price. I see that my suggestion of $25/hr was laughable based on the comments, but not all cities/regions/countries are the same. Where I live, getting paid $25/hr for anything is a stretch and an anomaly, no matter what your skills. I trust you - you wouldn't be wasting your time if this was a suspected "refusal to learn" scenario. If you actually are paid cash money, consider it beer money.
This guy may have a shot. Pretty bright kid. We spent 4 hours today learning a lot of shit, and never touched the computer. This guy is eating it up. Already he has absorbed more than I would have thought possible. I went back even, and tried to stump him... he has an excellent memory and ability to recall.
So far we have discussed file formats, color modes, DPI settings and color gamut. His homework is to familiarize himself thoroughly with the Pen Tool. I told him to save his work and e-mail me on Tuesday. We meet again Thursday night.
I took all the advice given, and merged it with my own. I came up with a figure of $250 for 2 lessons. One on Sundays for 4 hours and another in the week for 2. A total of 6 hours. I thank you all for your advice, once I had the information, I stood firm and presented my case. He was more than appreciative and thought the figure was very fair.
Nobody could challenge the group/ambit $$ figure from b4p. :grin: If he's that smart, he was already thinking: "This guy's been talking to 'people'...Hmmm".
Glad for you he's a MENSA candidate. You might actually enjoy it....
DCS, when do we all get our cut for the "consultation"? :laugh:
Quote from: agent_orange on April 06, 2009, 08:25:08 AMDCS, when do we all get our cut for the "consultation"? :laugh:
Hahahahahaha, YOU owe me remember? :wink:
yeah.... the excuses are piling up on that one. we're playing bad cop/worse cop now. i'm worse cop, by the way.
you ever listen to the nekromantix? all i can think of when i see your avatar/sig is "murder for breakfast".
"murder for breakfast, murder for lunch, murder for dinner and murder for brunch"
Quote from: agent_orange on April 06, 2009, 09:02:45 AMyeah.... the excuses are piling up on that one. we're playing bad cop/worse cop now. i'm worse cop, by the way.
you ever listen to the nekromantix? all i can think of when i see your avatar/sig is "murder for breakfast".
"murder for breakfast, murder for lunch, murder for dinner and murder for brunch"
Hahahahahaha, enough excuses! Where's my PUNK! Mom will be displeased.
Yes, I have heard Nekromantix... My avatar is a picture of me with my hair slicked back and a Reverend collar. What does it look like to you?
JOE!!!!!!?????!!!!! :angry:
it's not what it looks like, i just immediately think "murder" when i see your name or avatar or sig, then that song pops in my head. everytime....
of course, every time i see joe's i think "tiger man" by rufus thomas. i'm weird like that. everything is a song for me. sometimes it's how i remember things like people's names
Despite the money and that he "gets it"...don't you just hate sharing the knowledge? I do.
I don't mind the sharing, as long as they remember it correctly and don't come back and ask me 80 bazillion times "what that trick was".
Either learn it or get the "f" outa my way, I got other stuff to be doing, I don't have time to teach you people the same crap over and over.
my .02....
:tongue:
Quote from: david on April 06, 2009, 11:44:24 AMI don't mind the sharing, as long as they remember it correctly and don't come back and ask me 80 bazillion times "what that trick was".
Either learn it or get the "f" outa my way, I got other stuff to be doing, I don't have time to teach you people the same crap over and over.
my .02....
:tongue:
That is one of my biggest pet peeves as well. :death:
Quote from: gnubler on April 06, 2009, 10:29:01 AMDespite the money and that he "gets it"...don't you just hate sharing the knowledge? I do.
Yes, I do. I can remember many, many, many nights of stress and pressure and not knowing WTF I was doing, and through sheer perserverance I was able to keep my job. I think ALL PREPRESS people should go through this. It makes you appreciate it when you do remember one of those nights and know how to not have them again. Fuck it though... he's paying, I'm broke, what other choice do I have?
The Government has stripped my cigarettes and pot, made it a chore just to live FFS. My job strips me of my time and the fact the economy is bad, (again, thanks Gubs...) no MORE pay increases. Now I am stripped of my knowledge and pride... for money, again BECAUSE of the economy. What reeks in here!? It ain't Red Apple!
I just worry about job security and competition. :laugh: I'm feeling weird about having to help train my coworkers. Thank goodness for art schools perpetually milling a bunch of incompetent boobs.
Yay! Let's bring politics into EVERY SINGLE THREAD.
You sound high-strung, DCS. Come hang out with me, we can relax and raise some hell together.
Quote from: gnubler on April 06, 2009, 12:04:39 PMYay! Let's bring politics into EVERY SINGLE THREAD.
You sound high-strung, DCS. Come hang out with me, we can relax and raise some hell together.
Wouldn't this just produce a fold in the time-space continuum?
Quote from: gnubler on April 06, 2009, 12:04:39 PMYay! Let's bring politics into EVERY SINGLE THREAD.
You sound high-strung, DCS. Come hang out with me, we can relax and raise some hell together.
Sorry, I am fucking fed up with this shit. My boss has his new bi-yearly BAD ASS Benzo parked right outside Prepress, and it makes me want to vomit. I could barely get my car started.
I'm better now. :angel:
Quote from: ninjaPB_43 on April 06, 2009, 12:11:46 PMQuote from: gnubler on April 06, 2009, 12:04:39 PMYay! Let's bring politics into EVERY SINGLE THREAD.
You sound high-strung, DCS. Come hang out with me, we can relax and raise some hell together.
Wouldn't this just produce a fold in the time-space continuum?
Almost... THAT would take you as well. We should see if Red Apple wants to meet up later...
Quote from: DigitalCrapShoveler on April 06, 2009, 12:16:09 PMSorry, I am fucking fed up with this shit. My boss has his new bi-yearly BAD ASS Benzo parked right outside Prepress, and it makes me want to vomit. I could barely get my car started.
sounds like my old boss.. every 2 years or so he'd buy a new ski boat and keep it parked in the back of the warehouse on its trailer.. hed always have some kind of expensive toy back there just to show off.. whats worse is you had to watch him come in and hitch it up on fridays before he headed to the lake..
meanwhile, youd ask him for a raise and his response would be "oh, well if business looks good, we'll check again in 3 months.. BS!
im sure he bought that f'n thing with a tax break anyway..
Do they not realize it just looks bad? The morale of this company is at an all-time low.
Wow, so this is happening elsewhere??! :laugh: The owners here spend a week on a yacht and come back and say we are barely making it. :puke:
I've been begging them to send me to any and all educational seminars to help educate me on color management since they expect the world and I keep saying... ahh, I need some training... like I said from day one...
Then one day I'm walking down the hall and I hear the owner ask his son "Are you going to that seminar next weekend?" and he replies, "do I have to?"
I wanted to walk the F out...
It is really hard to break your back for a company, when the top dog, acts like the top dog. Don't get me wrong, if he/she deserve it, I am all for it. But, when I hear day in and day out... "The companies doing horrible... Like my new Benzo?" That just flushes me of all motivation. I make this company a SHITLOAD of cash... share the fucking wealth you fucking out of touch, piece of shit economical terrorist! :banghead:
Quote from: DigitalCrapShoveler on April 06, 2009, 01:08:03 PMIt is really hard to break your back for a company, when the top dog, acts like the top dog. Don't get me wrong, if he/she deserve it, I am all for it. But, when I hear day in and day out... "The companies doing horrible... Like my new Benzo?" That just flushes me of all motivation. I make this company a SHITLOAD of cash... share the fucking wealth you fucking out of touch, piece of shit economical terrorist! :banghead:
You know how they got all that bling in the first place? By not sharing it with their employees. :tongue:
Fact of life: You'll never get rich working for someone else. (CEO's exempt)
For true Joe, you won't lose a half million $ working for someone else either though.
Very true.
I'm looking for Shangrilah here I know. And that bullshit about working for someone is the rule not the exception. I worked out of my house for 3 years made AWESOME money, then the fucking Gubs took it all away. I am a blue collar sardine crammed on a fucking pink bus waiting for my stop in Hell. Make no mistake... I will key his car!
He'll just get a new one in 6 months.
Quote from: DigitalCrapShoveler on April 06, 2009, 01:22:30 PMI'm looking for Shangrilah here I know. And that bullshit about working for someone is the rule not the exception. I worked out of my house for 3 years made AWESOME money, then the fucking Gubs took it all away. I am a blue collar sardine crammed on a fucking pink bus waiting for my stop in Hell. Make no mistake... I will key his car!
You paint a very colorful picture of life. :laugh:
But it will piss him off for 5.
Quote from: born2print on April 06, 2009, 01:25:54 PMHe'll just get a new one in 6 months.
And cut wages and benefits to pay for it since he had to accelerate the renewal process due to the scratches! :death:
Quote from: Joe on April 06, 2009, 01:27:19 PMQuote from: DigitalCrapShoveler on April 06, 2009, 01:22:30 PMI'm looking for Shangrilah here I know. And that bullshit about working for someone is the rule not the exception. I worked out of my house for 3 years made AWESOME money, then the fucking Gubs took it all away. I am a blue collar sardine crammed on a fucking pink bus waiting for my stop in Hell. Make no mistake... I will key his car!
You paint a very colorful picture of life. :laugh:
Color me funnie!!!!11 :rainbow:
Quote from: DigitalCrapShoveler on April 06, 2009, 01:08:03 PMIt is really hard to break your back for a company, when the top dog, acts like the top dog. Don't get me wrong, if he/she deserve it, I am all for it. But, when I hear day in and day out... "The companies doing horrible... Like my new Benzo?" That just flushes me of all motivation. I make this company a SHITLOAD of cash... share the fucking wealth you fucking out of touch, piece of shit economical terrorist! :banghead:
AMEN!
Quote from: Joe on April 06, 2009, 01:28:52 PMQuote from: born2print on April 06, 2009, 01:25:54 PMHe'll just get a new one in 6 months.
And cut wages and benefits to pay for it since he had to accelerate the renewal process due to the scratches! :death:
BINGO!
Quote from: Homer Simpson on April 06, 2009, 01:28:52 PMCan't win... don't try.
Quote from: DigitalCrapShoveler on April 06, 2009, 12:02:43 PMYes, I do. I can remember many, many, many nights of stress and pressure and not knowing WTF I was doing...
Had a few of those last week! :shocked: but :grin: in the end. Prolly a good thing most of you guys are ZZZzzz... when I'm sloggin'. Just had to DIY it. :laugh:
The words "Fail Interpret" sometimes come to me in dreams now...usually flashing neon. :huh:
...er, is this Off Topic?
Quote from: DigitalCrapShoveler on April 03, 2009, 09:02:16 PMP.S. The guy is legit and NOT a homosexual.
What happens in prepress stays in prepress.
Yo D, maybe you could just set the guy up with some templates and he could use them to get started. Start him off slow, and maybe he'll pick alot of it up on his own.
not really the numbers youre looking for DCS, but one of my 'other' websites just posted this today:
http://survey.fresnodesignalliance.org/
not really training/prepress, but its accurate for as far as the local designers (freelance/agencies) in my area.
i think i need to step up my charges though cause i charge about half of whats posted here...
DCS, I always figured for after-hours work you should charge DOUBLE whatever your regular job pays, so for teaching you'd have to go above that IMO.
I think Lumpy has a good idea there, Templates! Page layouts, standard ad formats, etc ...
As for "sharing the wealth" - yeah, I can feel that at the moment. I'm struggling - balancing the money I make with the masses of responsibility I have (Design/layout corrections, RIPing, pagination, platemaking), I have some days here where my paranoia will waste hours as I have to re-check my work.
About a month ago, the owner was "talking" about a new shiny car, and that aggravated me (which I admit is stupid!), but as we hear about "financial woes", if I had to see him with a new bi-annual Merc ... it would make for some "interesting" interactions! :death:
Quote from: Captain_Type on April 07, 2009, 07:18:18 AMQuote from: DigitalCrapShoveler on April 03, 2009, 09:02:16 PMP.S. The guy is legit and NOT a homosexual.
What happens in prepress stays in prepress.
Are you saying that homos are not "legit"? Explain yourself, sir. I might be a lesbian someday and this statement offends me because I'm totally legit.
I'm a lesbian trapped in a mans body.
Okay, that last remark might be a little off topic.
(DAMN YOU Lumpy!!!)
... I was too slow! :angry:
Quote from: Lumpy on April 07, 2009, 10:50:52 AMI'm a lesbian trapped in a mans body.
I know what you mean. :afro:
Quote from: Foozball on April 07, 2009, 10:37:19 AMI have some days here where my paranoia will waste hours as I have to re-check my work.
My favourite bitch about The Morgue here...hate it. Isn't there an unwritten rule that if you are checking your own stuff, you'll inevitably miss something small-but-critical? Happened to me 2 weeks ago... :sad:
Quote from: frailer on April 07, 2009, 09:59:34 PMQuote from: Foozball on April 07, 2009, 10:37:19 AMI have some days here where my paranoia will waste hours as I have to re-check my work.
My favourite bitch about The Morgue here...hate it. Isn't there an unwritten rule that if you are checking your own stuff, you'll inevitably miss something small-but-critical? Happened to me 2 weeks ago... :sad:
Only person who even understands my work is my supervisor (great guy), but man I'd KILL to have someone to give my crap the "once over" ... without walking down to the office areas.
So far my mistake count is at 2 (re-printed jobs), in 11 months, but another 1 was acceptable by the client and another was "worked around" by the bindery. I'm happy about the low number, but some days there the pressure is ridiculous, I can TOTALLY understand how and why DCS likes being such a psycho!
The upside of flying solo is that complicated (logical) crap like Imposition, I'm getting REAL good at, I've been imposing everything manually (from my head) for most of this year. Sad thing is that I KNOW that knowledge will NEVER get passed on, it's gonna stay in my head forever, almost makes me wish someone would want to pay me $30/hr to teach them how to do it! :wink:
Foozball, didn't you confess you had access to Dynastrip? I understand it's the equivalent here of admitting to an infestation of bed-bugs; but mate, you should not be imposing manually if you have it.
Fer chrissakes PM me, and let's discuss getting you over the hump with it, like 2 mature adults. :laugh:
Seriously... :police: We could set up a time, and use Chat as realtime instruction. Crude, but it would work...
I am a product of my environment. Prepress made me.
Quote from: frailer on April 13, 2009, 03:00:56 AMFoozball, didn't you confess you had access to Dynastrip? I understand it's the equivalent here of admitting to an infestation of bed-bugs; but mate, you should not be imposing manually if you have it.
Fer chrissakes PM me, and let's discuss getting you over the hump with it, like 2 mature adults. :laugh:
Seriously... :police: We could set up a time, and use Chat as realtime instruction. Crude, but it would work...
Thanks Frailer, I'm gonna take you up on the help offer, but I'd rather do it through the Dynastrip forum (if you're ok with that?), I'd be interested to see how you impose a book with Dynastrip. I've had NO real guides, aside from what my predecessor does, and I have even surprised him a few times with things I have "found" buried in the program. (I'll PM you when I get time to start the new thread.)
As for the "shame" of using Dynastrip, if you could see half the stone-age stuff we run here, you'd laugh your ass off! Considering how small the operation is here, as long as things work efficiently, no-one breaks my balls (without cause) and I get paid, I'm not about to argue. :wink:
End of last week was just a caffeine driven blur of ripping/re-ripping pages, imposing, and making plates - in-time to keep up with the press operators. I still think I'm a "rookie" at this, so last week was my first real solo imposition work, with no previous work/s to use as a "guide". (Pressmen, bindery and manager were ALL happy with the final result! :grin:)
Sadly though, somewhere in that "blur" I had a conversation with my wife that I don't remember, ... man, did that cost me a few $$$! :banghead:
Yep, in the Dynastrip area, for sure; where we won't bore everyone else witless. :laugh:
It's a quirky app, but once it gels, and you get used to a few annoyances at the way "works", it's really OK. Not as stable/solid as PREPS, i get the impression; but nevertheless OK.
Odd things you can do with it...today I had a 2 up complete landscape A4 job. Only had a portrait Template. Just re-sized the A4 pages to landscape...saved "new" Sheet to Templates Library...instant new LS Template; all in about 30 secs. All marks/bars etc.
Now Joe or someone's gonna come along and tell me you can do that in PREPs... :laugh:
Anyway, just in your own time; PM me, and we'll kick off. If you're doing much manual imposing, you stand to save hours per week.
Then you'll be able to check your own work 4 times! :tongue:
Quote from: frailer on April 16, 2009, 06:33:49 AMYep, in the Dynastrip area, for sure; where we won't bore everyone else witless. :laugh:
It's a quirky app, but once it gels, and you get used to a few annoyances at the way "works", it's really OK. Not as stable/solid as PREPS, i get the impression; but nevertheless OK.
Odd things you can do with it...today I had a 2 up complete landscape A4 job. Only had a portrait Template. Just re-sized the A4 pages to landscape...saved "new" Sheet to Templates Library...instant new LS Template; all in about 30 secs. All marks/bars etc.
Now Joe or someone's gonna come along and tell me you can do that in PREPs... :laugh:
Anyway, just in your own time; PM me, and we'll kick off. If you're doing much manual imposing, you stand to save hours per week.
Then you'll be able to check your own work 4 times! :tongue:
Ummmm...you can do that in Preps. :tongue:
Quote from: Joe on April 16, 2009, 10:44:42 AMUmmmm...you can do that in Preps. :tongue:
Damn, I
knew it! :embarrassed: