So I'm contemplating a change from preps, currently on 7 but I have had a few issues with some pdfs created out of preps (see other threads if interested) and given that its about $600 US to update to 8 and the issues will still remain I see very little point.
Not to mention the complete lack of technical help available for those of us who have the standalone version and are not using Prinergy. (Been told by the country supplier that unless you have a service contract with them they wont even answer emailed technical questions, thats kodak for ya).
We also now only have the smaller presses so dont often have the complicated impos we used to have with the A2.
I've pretty much decided that there might be better options out there to investigate... which is nice as that was never an option when we first started with preps, many years ago... well except dynostrip and that one sucked bigtime.
So i would like some opinions from the community... anyone out there using other options?
Imposition studio is one i am looking at... they have a really good fully functioning demo so I have been able to trial a few files and so far so good (i.e the issue I have out of preps does NOT happen!), cost is pretty low but i have no idea of support? (think I will email them and see how they respond to queries). I havent even found any forums for it but It looks like it will do the things I want from what I have looked at.
Imposititon Wizard: I have yet to look at that one.
Quite Imposing: I used this a few years ago but it was pretty clunky and I dont think it will do what I want... but I have not looked at the latest version so I dont really know.
I think I would prefer a standalone software rather than an acrobat plugin
so any ideas people?
I was using Imposition Studio for just under a year, it was a reasonably priced stopgap until we committed to XMF, but it was far from ideal for our 4up press. Yes, it does templates & has some of the "big boy" features it was just overall cumbersome but it got things done & was miles above manually imposing everything in InDesign.
Case in point: I had to make special Actions in Pitstop to post-process its Imposed PDFs, as it was making the final sheet-sized files larger due to the side guides. Oh, and it wouldn't let me specify which edge was the gripper. It may be fine for digital work and small presses, and there's nothing else I found in the same price that had the features it does.
Support: I only emailed a few times, they were responsive but a little "Oh, we're planning that in an update" when I asked about features or fixes. Don't think I saw more than one update in the tie we used it.
thanks slappy!
How long ago did you use it? I think they have got a fairly recent update, on version 5 now
Was it the offset version you used?
Im still trying to get my head around how to put on side lays etc
InDesign has an inexpensive imposition plug in maybe you can do a trial?
It works pretty good for Digital stuff, If that's what your doing.
One thing I don't like about it is it creates a pdf from the initial indesign file
I would rather use my orig pdf, so I relink to my orig.
I rarely use it, just for weird sizes if I'm in a hurry.
Most of my files are supplied as pdfs so I probably need a pdf imposition rather than indesign plugin.
Slappy: I see what you mean about creating a larger size when adding lay marks, thats a bit annoying!
This is gonna take a while to work through.. sigh...
PDF workflow is indispensable, for modern CTP prepress. Most of the good ones have built in imposition. The in-house impo in Sierra/XMF is very nice, and I'm an old Prep's junkie... haven't touched Preps in years.
She was using Preps. The problem is that Preps was never meant to output imposed PDF's. Proven by the problems she was having with her Preps generated PDF's. It is meant to output JDF to a workflow that then makes the imposed PDF.
funny enough, its fuji who have installed the new RIP this month, which is a vast improvement on the very old RIP... I did mention about XMF to the boss but I think it will be too expensive to get.
Joe: Im curious, have used preps of and on for many years through a few different versions... was it never intended as a imposed pdf output?
No. In Kodaks world you should output to Prinergy which sends JDF from Preps to Prinergy. And from my limited experience with XMF it worked fine to output JDF and then import that into XMF. At the time we were trying XMF they were having trouble creating some of our complicated multi-sig impositions in the XMF imposition software (not saying XMF won't do it today but our trainers didn't know how to do it at the time). Preps just doesn't have the know how or muscle to handle live transparency like a full blown workflow (Prinergy, XMF, etc...) using the Adobe PDF Print Engine.
Now you say you got a new RIP? Can it import JDF files? Either kind named with the .pjtf extension or a .jdf extension. If you can....try exporting a .pjtf from Preps and then import it into your RIP.
Quote from: Joe on January 24, 2018, 03:59:46 PMShe was using Preps. The problem is that Preps was never meant to output imposed PDF's. Proven by the problems she was having with her Preps generated PDF's. It is meant to output JDF to a workflow that then makes the imposed PDF.
Right, that's why I'm saying an integrated workflow is the best. I export imposed PDFs from mine daily, in addition to the 1-bit tiffs.
I think Xitron Sierra is more affordable than XMF. They are not quite the same anymore and drift further apart, now that Xitron pwns Sierra. And the multi-sig part has come a long way. I had to bring Preps JDF templates into Sierra, back in the XMF days but the techs at Xitron updated it and I can now have all sorts of crazy multi-sig madness. And I use Sierra to prep for my digital press, because it is way better than trying to do it in the Fiery... export imposed PDF from Sierra to hotfolders, monitored by the Fiery.
will check that out Joe
Quote from: Ear on January 24, 2018, 05:45:05 PMRight, that's why I'm saying an integrated workflow is the best. I export imposed PDFs from mine daily, in addition to the 1-bit tiffs.
I think Xitron Sierra is more affordable than XMF. They are not quite the same anymore and drift further apart, now that Xitron pwns Sierra. And the multi-sig part has come a long way. I had to bring Preps JDF templates into Sierra, back in the XMF days but the techs at Xitron updated it and I can now have all sorts of crazy multi-sig madness. And I use Sierra to prep for my digital press, because it is way better than trying to do it in the Fiery... export imposed PDF from Sierra to hotfolders, monitored by the Fiery.
Yeah the problem is that her RIP isn't integrated with any kind of workflow. She is imposing PDF's and exporting an imposed PDF directly from Preps and Preps doesn't make the greatest PDF's. But if her new RIP can import JDF (.pjtf or .jdf files) she might be able to continue to use Preps.
Quote from: DPSprint on January 24, 2018, 05:49:03 PMwill check that out Joe
What kind of RIP are you using now? Of course if it is an old one it probably won't do any better than Preps. :(
And yes, Joe is right about JDF.
JDF can act a little funny, if you try to use too much automation, in my experience. They come in as a static mark template, with static page placement but they will keep the PDF live, separate of the template marks, until rendering. I think it will work but it might be limited or you will have to make position edits in Preps and update.
I actually still have a bunch of old JDF templates in Sierra that my more limited staff prefers, because they can't really get themselves in trouble.
I haven't actually launched Preps in years, so I can't remember all of the nuances of JDF creation but there were a handful of parameters that would produce odd errors. I remember if I modified marks on a template, then exported, the resulting JDF would not allow pages to auto center. But if I modified the template, quit Preps - restart, then open and export without modifying, the template would be okay.
I also remember a problem with Creep being intermittent, in the JDF. There were others that aren't coming to mind but most were just doing things in certain order. It was weird but I got a lot of work done that way, until I got integrated.
Quote from: Ear on January 24, 2018, 06:00:20 PMI haven't actually launched Preps in years, so I can't remember all of the nuances of JDF creation but there were a handful of parameters that would produce odd errors. I remember if I modified marks on a template, then exported, the resulting JDF would not allow pages to auto center. But if I modified the template, quit Preps - restart, then open and export without modifying, the template would be okay.
I also remember a problem with Creep being intermittent, in the JDF. There were others that aren't coming to mind but most were just doing things in certain order. It was weird but I got a lot of work done that way, until I got integrated.
Were you using version 5 back then? Version 6 was a complete re-do. Nothing like the old Preps 5. It is now up to version 8. Every impo we make creates a JDF in the Prinergy job system folder and then processes whatever output we need like imposed PDF's or imposed one-bit tiffs for the CTP or our imposed virtual proofs and everything seems to work that way. Creep, bottling, etc... I can't speak of how it behaves in other workflows though.
Quote from: DPSprint on January 24, 2018, 02:48:01 PMMost of my files are supplied as pdfs so I probably need a pdf imposition rather than indesign plugin.
Slappy: I see what you mean about creating a larger size when adding lay marks, thats a bit annoying!
This is gonna take a while to work through.. sigh...
That was probably my biggest problem, so I made Actions in Pitstop (for all of our normal press sheet sizes) that rotated & cropped to the "true" sheet size, leaving the lay marks in place. Oh, I also had to make my own & store them in the App's resource folder. They're just PDFs, I simply renamed them to exactly match the original marks so the program would recognize them
I used it for less than a year, not sure I could have tolerated it too much longer.
Quote from: DPSprint on January 24, 2018, 04:02:05 PMfunny enough, its fuji who have installed the new RIP this month, which is a vast improvement on the very old RIP... I did mention about XMF to the boss but I think it will be too expensive to get.
I know in our case, we threw in for Fuji's plates, chemistry and I think some other assorted supplies and was told that the saving on plate cost
alone from our old vendor would pay for XMF in short order, so it was a no-brainer. Might be worth a discussion, if you're in a position to negotiate.
Quote from: Joe on January 24, 2018, 04:19:16 PMAt the time we were trying XMF they were having trouble creating some of our complicated multi-sig impositions in the XMF imposition software (not saying XMF won't do it today but our trainers didn't know how to do it at the time).
Sorry for the Hijack DPSprint, but, Joe would you be willing to share with me a "complicated multi-sig impo" I would like to have a crack at it. I know I can get XMF to do some complex multi-sig impos. I would just like to have a crack at it if at all possible.
I use Imposition Studio Pro and love it. Support is fantastic and very fast. Issues I have had or glitches I found brought about updates they released shortly after. Been very impressed with their support.
Quote from: Diddler on January 25, 2018, 01:48:29 AMSorry for the Hijack DPSprint, but, Joe would you be willing to share with me a "complicated multi-sig impo" I would like to have a crack at it. I know I can get XMF to do some complex multi-sig impos. I would just like to have a crack at it if at all possible.
Sure. Here is saddle stitch double parallel multi-sig template where the pages with the blue outline on them are sig 1 and the pages outlined in red are sig 2. Sig 1 being pages 1-16 & 49-64 and sig 2 being 17-48. They deliver out of the press as 2 different sigs.
Yes, Sierra impo handles that just fine. Didn't use to, but it does a great job now. I do native double parallel, as well as multi-web, including odd half and 3/4 web in the mix, when needed. Your press is bigger than mine, Joe, but I have many a template like your double parallel example.
And yes, I stopped at Preps 6, but did most of my JDF out of 5. I think you are right that a lot of the odd errors stopped, for the brief time I used 6.
Quote from: Slappy on January 24, 2018, 09:14:37 PMQuote from: DPSprint on January 24, 2018, 04:02:05 PMfunny enough, its fuji who have installed the new RIP this month, which is a vast improvement on the very old RIP... I did mention about XMF to the boss but I think it will be too expensive to get.
I know in our case, we threw in for Fuji's plates, chemistry and I think some other assorted supplies and was told that the saving on plate cost alone from our old vendor would pay for XMF in short order, so it was a no-brainer. Might be worth a discussion, if you're in a position to negotiate.
we have done the same, but the offset side is nowhere near as big as it was a few years ago so I dont think the savings were huge (even with both the 4 col and 2 col presses... we sold the a2 last year) so would be lucky if we made 12 plates a day now... probably more 70/30 - digital (indigo) /offset now
but for this place its perfect... we slot between the digital print places and the large offset places nicely... full the gap so to speak, we often do work for both.
Its a xitron navigator RIP, still uses the same software (Harlequin) that we have had for years, just updated. (needed to be done as since the 2 company merge we had to use both rips, slightly different versions to do plates and the CIPS ink files, neither could do both). And I see looking at the website that sierra is the workflow they run... probably too expensive again!
I did actually get a reply for the local kodak/preps supplier yesterday:
"The current release of Preps v8.1 will not run with this High Sierra.
Preps v8.2 is due for release end of March.
My recommendation from the issues described, is to wait for this release.
This will then allow you to upgrade both your Mac OS and Preps at the same time.
I have requested further info from Vancouver in regards to the Adobe PDF engine updates for Standalone versions.
Will let you know when I have this info."
so we wait on that score, gives me more time to evaluate others, unfortunately leaves me on Yosemite until then really. Not much point in updating sys software now though i guess I could go up to sierra maybe.
The only issue I have is that CC wont update to the very latest as I dont have the latest sys software... and i have had a couple of indesign files from designers that say they need an updated version, tis a tad annoying
Quote from: wonderings on January 25, 2018, 07:26:28 AMI use Imposition Studio Pro and love it. Support is fantastic and very fast. Issues I have had or glitches I found brought about updates they released shortly after. Been very impressed with their support.
Thanks, I may talk to you a bit about it. :)
Do you do offset work at all? Have you seen that plate mark issue?
Quote from: DPSprint on January 25, 2018, 12:40:17 PMQuote from: Slappy on January 24, 2018, 09:14:37 PMQuote from: DPSprint on January 24, 2018, 04:02:05 PMfunny enough, its fuji who have installed the new RIP this month, which is a vast improvement on the very old RIP... I did mention about XMF to the boss but I think it will be too expensive to get.
I know in our case, we threw in for Fuji's plates, chemistry and I think some other assorted supplies and was told that the saving on plate cost alone from our old vendor would pay for XMF in short order, so it was a no-brainer. Might be worth a discussion, if you're in a position to negotiate.
we have done the same, but the offset side is nowhere near as big as it was a few years ago so I dont think the savings were huge (even with both the 4 col and 2 col presses... we sold the a2 last year) so would be lucky if we made 12 plates a day now... probably more 70/30 - digital (indigo) /offset now
but for this place its perfect... we slot between the digital print places and the large offset places nicely... full the gap so to speak, we often do work for both.
Its a xitron navigator RIP, still uses the same software (Harlequin) that we have had for years, just updated. (needed to be done as since the 2 company merge we had to use both rips, slightly different versions to do plates and the CIPS ink files, neither could do both). And I see looking at the website that sierra is the workflow they run... probably too expensive again!
I did actually get a reply for the local kodak/preps supplier yesterday:
"The current release of Preps v8.1 will not run with this High Sierra.
Preps v8.2 is due for release end of March.
My recommendation from the issues described, is to wait for this release.
This will then allow you to upgrade both your Mac OS and Preps at the same time.
I have requested further info from Vancouver in regards to the Adobe PDF engine updates for Standalone versions.
Will let you know when I have this info."
so we wait on that score, gives me more time to evaluate others, unfortunately leaves me on Yosemite until then really. Not much point in updating sys software now though i guess I could go up to sierra maybe.
The only issue I have is that CC wont update to the very latest as I dont have the latest sys software... and i have had a couple of indesign files from designers that say they need an updated version, tis a tad annoying
Preps 8.1 works fine in Sierra as does the latest Adobe CC. There will never be the Adobe PDF Print Engine in Preps. And even if they could you wouldn't like the price. I asked about getting it for our Fiery RIP on our color copier. $25,000 US Dollars. Needless to say we do not have it on our Fiery. :D
Quote from: Ear on January 25, 2018, 12:13:28 PMYes, Sierra impo handles that just fine. Didn't use to, but it does a great job now. I do native double parallel, as well as multi-web, including odd half and 3/4 web in the mix, when needed. Your press is bigger than mine, Joe, but I have many a template like your double parallel example.
And yes, I stopped at Preps 6, but did most of my JDF out of 5. I think you are right that a lot of the odd errors stopped, for the brief time I used 6.
Are you using folding patterns to do an impo like that. If so can you tell me which folding pattern you use and any other specifics because I've never been able to get the folding patterns in Preps to work for a multi-sig template.
And if I remember right someone from XMF came up with kind of a work around in our short time with XMF but the problem with their work around was that in a perfect bound job they couldn't get collation marks to place on both sigs and be numbered differently. For example we can run a perfect bound book using multi-sig templates and each sig has the collation mark box numbered correctly. And if we run a multi-sig we can also assign the same pages to each sig to run it 2 up and each collation mark box will number them the same number of sig. Preps is pretty smart the way it handles it. Also we can have a different job info variable mark for each sig identifying it as sig1, sig2, etc...those are the kinds of things that XMF couldn't do at the time.
There is also Metrix out there. The guys behind it were the original programmers of Preps back in the day. I haven't used it, but have looked at. And it looks pretty good. The shop where I work is a Kodak shop. Workshop and Preps.
Here's a link to Metrix's info: http://www.efi.com/products/productivity-software/imposition-layout/efi-metrix-planning-and-imposition/overview/ (http://www.efi.com/products/productivity-software/imposition-layout/efi-metrix-planning-and-imposition/overview/)
what sort of cost is Metrix?
Joe, I'm not using the folding patterns. I like to control the pagination myself. I use auto page flow, once I get one form created but I set the pattern myself.
Quote from: DPSprint on January 25, 2018, 01:49:07 PMwhat sort of cost is Metrix?
Not 100% sure, but I think it is along the line of Preps. But seems to be built more around the idea of integrating with other systems, including MIS. From what I can remember, a strong JDF setup.
Quote from: Ear on January 25, 2018, 02:01:06 PMJoe, I'm not using the folding patterns. I like to control the pagination myself. I use auto page flow, once I get one form created but I set the pattern myself.
So sort of like Preps templates?
Quote from: scottrsimons on January 25, 2018, 02:09:39 PMQuote from: DPSprint on January 25, 2018, 01:49:07 PMwhat sort of cost is Metrix?
Not 100% sure, but I think it is along the line of Preps. But seems to be built more around the idea of integrating with other systems, including MIS. From what I can remember, a strong JDF setup.
Here is some info about Metrix. It doesn't list the price but it does show the different versions of the software depending on a users needs.
http://www.fujifilmusa.com/shared/bin/metrix-brochure_fuji_090827.pdf
Quote from: Joe on January 25, 2018, 02:11:08 PMQuote from: Ear on January 25, 2018, 02:01:06 PMJoe, I'm not using the folding patterns. I like to control the pagination myself. I use auto page flow, once I get one form created but I set the pattern myself.
So sort of like Preps templates?
Yep. I also import custom marks and do other old school weird shit that old pressguys like. Them thar new fangled patterns ain't got no stones in ther gizzard.
Quote from: DPSprint on January 25, 2018, 12:42:27 PMQuote from: wonderings on January 25, 2018, 07:26:28 AMI use Imposition Studio Pro and love it. Support is fantastic and very fast. Issues I have had or glitches I found brought about updates they released shortly after. Been very impressed with their support.
Thanks, I may talk to you a bit about it. :)
Do you do offset work at all? Have you seen that plate mark issue?
I do use it for plates as well as for digital. Not sure what plate mark issue you are referring to.
Quote from: Ear on January 25, 2018, 02:25:13 PMQuote from: Joe on January 25, 2018, 02:11:08 PMQuote from: Ear on January 25, 2018, 02:01:06 PMJoe, I'm not using the folding patterns. I like to control the pagination myself. I use auto page flow, once I get one form created but I set the pattern myself.
So sort of like Preps templates?
Yep. I also import custom marks and do other old school weird shit that old pressguys like. Them thar new fangled patterns ain't got no stones in ther gizzard.
Yeah either I just don't understand them new fangled patterns or they are a lot more limited than the old template system. I prefer the latter explanation. :hello:
Quote from: wonderings on January 25, 2018, 02:41:58 PMQuote from: DPSprint on January 25, 2018, 12:42:27 PMQuote from: wonderings on January 25, 2018, 07:26:28 AMI use Imposition Studio Pro and love it. Support is fantastic and very fast. Issues I have had or glitches I found brought about updates they released shortly after. Been very impressed with their support.
Thanks, I may talk to you a bit about it. :)
Do you do offset work at all? Have you seen that plate mark issue?
I do use it for plates as well as for digital. Not sure what plate mark issue you are referring to.
when you have plate marks added to the side and create a pdf, it makes the pdf size much bigger... i.e. the 450mm SRA3 became 463.4mm wide instead.
Have never had that happen to me. What I do though for everything is set the plate width and printing paper size to the same. Might not work for your setup so you might need to contact support and have them figure it out for you. My PDFs come out the size I set for as seen in the screen shot. Does not matter what paper size.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4707/25026967887_6e1191d61d_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/E8xKCk)Screen Shot 2018-01-25 at 4.44.07 PM (https://flic.kr/p/E8xKCk) by B P (https://www.flickr.com/photos/150260324@N03/), on Flickr
also what version is your demo? Latest version is 5.1.1
I seem to remember that might have been an issue a while back but was resolved with an update. I could be wrong though.
thanks wonderings, will look into that!
...and that works perfectly!
I'm the Metrix Support guy, PM me if you have Metrix questions.
Quote from: Joe on January 25, 2018, 02:16:44 PMQuote from: scottrsimons on January 25, 2018, 02:09:39 PMQuote from: DPSprint on January 25, 2018, 01:49:07 PMwhat sort of cost is Metrix?
Not 100% sure, but I think it is along the line of Preps. But seems to be built more around the idea of integrating with other systems, including MIS. From what I can remember, a strong JDF setup.
Here is some info about Metrix. It doesn't list the price but it does show the different versions of the software depending on a users needs.
http://www.fujifilmusa.com/shared/bin/metrix-brochure_fuji_090827.pdf
When a company does not show a price for software it is generally a turn off to me. They want to get their salesforce on you when the product might and is most likely way out of budget, at least for me. Matrix looked nice from the demo videos I watched but I get enough sales people trying to push their products that I do not want to give my contact out to another unless I know it is something even close to achievable and being in the budget. Not sure why they hide the price.
Quote from: wonderings on January 29, 2018, 09:41:46 AMQuote from: Joe on January 25, 2018, 02:16:44 PMQuote from: scottrsimons on January 25, 2018, 02:09:39 PMQuote from: DPSprint on January 25, 2018, 01:49:07 PMwhat sort of cost is Metrix?
Not 100% sure, but I think it is along the line of Preps. But seems to be built more around the idea of integrating with other systems, including MIS. From what I can remember, a strong JDF setup.
Here is some info about Metrix. It doesn't list the price but it does show the different versions of the software depending on a users needs.
http://www.fujifilmusa.com/shared/bin/metrix-brochure_fuji_090827.pdf
When a company does not show a price for software it is generally a turn off to me. They want to get their salesforce on you when the product might and is most likely way out of budget, at least for me. Matrix looked nice from the demo videos I watched but I get enough sales people trying to push their products that I do not want to give my contact out to another unless I know it is something even close to achievable and being in the budget. Not sure why they hide the price.
I assume it is in the price range of Preps and I agree about the price not being shown. If I am looking for a certain product and I find three of them but only 2 show prices then the one that doesn't have a price gets no more attention from me. That absolutely disqualifies them from the game. And it also tells me theirs is crazy expensive.
Quote from: Joe on January 25, 2018, 08:13:52 AMQuote from: Diddler on January 25, 2018, 01:48:29 AMSorry for the Hijack DPSprint, but, Joe would you be willing to share with me a "complicated multi-sig impo" I would like to have a crack at it. I know I can get XMF to do some complex multi-sig impos. I would just like to have a crack at it if at all possible.
Sure. Here is saddle stitch double parallel multi-sig template where the pages with the blue outline on them are sig 1 and the pages outlined in red are sig 2. Sig 1 being pages 1-16 & 49-64 and sig 2 being 17-48. They deliver out of the press as 2 different sigs.
My head when I enlarged that. :laugh:
Oh, and working with 28" presses since my hair was all brown; it's been a simple life. Moosn't groomble.