Preps 6 vs Metrix

Started by EmptyWords, February 10, 2010, 05:47:23 PM

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determined

#15
Quote from: david on February 15, 2010, 08:34:16 AM
Quote from: determined on February 12, 2010, 01:57:11 PMOh btw, I have gotten nested stuff to work in metrix....(pocket folder dies, to be exact)...apparently, it won't "block" out the one behind it as long as you use the hi res pdf (not the fpo)

yeah, it can be done, you just have to be "creative" to get it to work right, that's why I hear all the time:
CSR:  Metrix is broke, it won't do my layout...
me: what are you doing?
CSR: trying to build this 4 up pocket folder with blah blah blah...
me: give it up, I don't have the time it takes to teach you how to use your brain, we'll do it in Esko.


LOL

yeah, I guess that's the part you can't teach somebody, how to use their brain   :rolleyes: 
Murphy must have been in printing....

DigiCorn

Quote from: johnny_jay on February 15, 2010, 10:03:59 AMWe switched from Rampage to Prinergy last year so my memory is fuzzy but I thought you could save an fpo as either a pdf or an eps. Will the fpo pdf not work in Rampage/Preps6?

Not in Preps 6, no. Preps 5, yes. Preps 6 is jdf or native pdf only.

My issue, as a Rampage user on a sheetfed press, with jdf is that the theory behind jdf is that you make a set of common templates and then utilize them for everything. In reality, this is so far from the truth it is laughable. Basically, unless you're running a ton of repeat work, or you're a 1/4 sheet shop (basically each sheet is maxed out), you're going to need take off bars to take up extra ink for even key settings (this might be a moot point if you're set up for CIP3, but we're not). And unless you know a secret I don't, those take off bars will have to be manually placed and sized according to the parameters of the job.

Also, if you need to apply creep, you'll have to create new templates with custom creep, or make manual adjustments to the original artwork, because the jdf will not allow you to set a unique creep in Rampage. Essentially, jdf is not a timesaver because if you run a lot of unique jobs, you'll need unique jdf templates to strip to for each of them.

I can't see any kind of advantage for the average user to going strictly to jdf with Preps and Rampage (Metrix is jdf so when we make a move in that direction I'll have to adjust accordingly), and I can't see any advantage for the average Rampage user to make the upgrade to Preps 6.

You can see my complete jdf rant here: https://www.b4print.com/kodak-preps/jdf-preps-and-rampage-(oh-my!)/msg91596/#msg91596 or here: http://www.mygua.org/forums/showthread.php?t=3487
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born2print

Quote from: David on February 11, 2010, 08:00:54 AMWe have Metrix here, and it is "Preps" like, but with some other functionality. Like Frailer said, it's JDF out and all. It works with our MIS  system Prisim, estimates are imported into Metrix and the press layout is automatically generated, it then can be automatically manipulated to find the "best" utilization of the paper.

As far as which is better, tough call. Depends on what you need to do. If you need nested packaging impos, metrix won't do that, it only works with squares. So, you'll be looking at "how can we do this" type of workflow.
Preps on the other hand, I haven't used since V3 or 4, can't remember which.
We currently use Esko Suite 7, which can impo virtually everything. Looking into Prinergy, seeing what they have to offer.
David, we've been feeding Preps from UpFront forever.
We have started training videos and playing with Metrix.
My question right now is when you export jdf from Metrix, can you import to Preps (Prinergy here btw) like we do with upfront?
We are interested in prepress doing the prepress, not estimators and planners...
Thanks in advance  8)
How will I laugh tomorrow...
when I can't even smile today?

RMPrepress

#18
Switched from Esko Nexus and Preps 5 I think it was at the time, to Kodak Prinergy and now Preps 9 and also InSite Prepress Portal back in 2017.
Best decision we ever made as far as our front end workflow goes.
I know Kodak is expensive with the monthly subscriptions and the support costs but we really have no complaints other than how slow Kodak is responding every year to macOS updates.  I find their support to be very responsive.
Having Prinergy and Preps connected the way Kodak does is a wonderful thing.
We have almost doubled our sales since 2017 and we have had to hire no one in prepress and we work almost zero OT.
I attribute almost all of that to having Prinergy and Preps and Insite all working together...to me there is no other way to go.
The ROI has been great from that standpoint alone.

Metrix was tempting back in 2017 because we do use EFI Pace as our MIS but i was not impressed by the demo we had with EFI at the time and all of our prepress guys including myself were Preps users.

Kodak plates on the other hand was another story entirely....long story short...we now use Heidelberg plates and a Suprasetter CTP.
Manager/Default IT Guy - 2022 Mac Studio, Apple M1 Max, 64 GB - Ventura 13.6
Kodak Prinergy 10.0, Kodak Insite 9.5 and Kodak Proofing System 10.0
Epson SureColor P9000 w/XRite Spectroproofer - G7 Master Printer
Heidelberg Prinect 2022 + Suprasetter 106 CTP

born2print

Yes, we run Prinergy 9 and Preps.
We do a lot of book work and UpFront is wonderful for that, and we import into workshop and manipulate with Preps.
Our fear of losing Upfront grows yearly, it is long past end of life, we are trying to switch to Metrix before we lose it.
We don't want estimators or planners assigning content and exporting imposed pdfs from Metrix.
We want to do the prepress in prepress, add marks, shingle for creep, etc... etc... and control the assignment of refined pdfs. This is what we do now.
When we export jdf from metrix, we see it, and when I import into Prinergy it's there... but when I open it with Preps, there is no ".job"... like no .tpl... only pages (run list) in the pages tab. When I open the signature in Preps, it's empty.
We're missing something I reckon... I hope...
the training video we're watching had the awful words "metrix replacing preps" and surely that can't be right.
We're not trying to redo the whole shop's workflow, just want a planning solution that's good with bookwork like upfront.
How will I laugh tomorrow...
when I can't even smile today?

Joe

I may be lost here but why do you think you need Metrix rather than just using Preps that you are using now. What is UpFront doing that Preps won't do?
Mac OS Sonoma 14.2.1 (c) | (retired)

The seven ages of man: spills, drills, thrills, bills, ills, pills and wills.

David

Matrix can do layouts based on quantities and maximizing paper usage. Basically there would be minimal scrap paper after the run, which saved a ton of money on the paper, and the ink on press.


Example, we used to do Shelf cards for Blockbuster (remember the video store). These were the cards that were behind the videos so when the videos were gone, you would see the card. Sometimes they needed 100 of 1 video card, 500 of another, 1500 of another, etc. Most would think that you would just gang the one card on one layout and just run till you hit qty, most times you had tons of overs.
Matrix would calculate and spread out over multiple sigs different cards to minimize the number of press sheets to get qty on all the various cards. At the height of the video craze, we were doing these by the millions, had one prepress guy dedicated specifically with dealing directly with the customer and matching the layouts to each PO. It would also set it up the JDF so this could go to the bindery for trimming, the layout was fed to the online cutter and the operator did not have to do the programming for bizarre cuts.

All automated, happens quite quickly when it was working.

But, this was in 2010, Blockbuster went out of business, Williamson Printing went on the chopping block (became Quad), never used it after that.

Prepress guy - Retired - Working from home
Livin' la Vida Loca

born2print

That's a fair question Joe. Upfront builds and keeps a database of the equipment and materials and will save you from yourself. It is modular and when you make a preferred fold plan, signature plan, layout plan, etc... it will get fed to you in the future when you do a similar job. It will filter you from doing impossible things. Our planner has learned Preps second hand from prepress and can use it but is a power user of UpFront with first hand training from Patrick @ Kodak back in the day so she is comfortable with it.
How will I laugh tomorrow...
when I can't even smile today?

Joe

Quote from: David on February 24, 2023, 03:09:44 PMMatrix can do layouts based on quantities and maximizing paper usage. Basically there would be minimal scrap paper after the run, which saved a ton of money on the paper, and the ink on press.


Example, we used to do Shelf cards for Blockbuster (remember the video store). These were the cards that were behind the videos so when the videos were gone, you would see the card. Sometimes they needed 100 of 1 video card, 500 of another, 1500 of another, etc. Most would think that you would just gang the one card on one layout and just run till you hit qty, most times you had tons of overs.
Matrix would calculate and spread out over multiple sigs different cards to minimize the number of press sheets to get qty on all the various cards. At the height of the video craze, we were doing these by the millions, had one prepress guy dedicated specifically with dealing directly with the customer and matching the layouts to each PO. It would also set it up the JDF so this could go to the bindery for trimming, the layout was fed to the online cutter and the operator did not have to do the programming for bizarre cuts.

All automated, happens quite quickly when it was working.

But, this was in 2010, Blockbuster went out of business, Williamson Printing went on the chopping block (became Quad), never used it after that.


Can't you do the same thing with the Preps AutoGang feature?
Mac OS Sonoma 14.2.1 (c) | (retired)

The seven ages of man: spills, drills, thrills, bills, ills, pills and wills.

born2print

Also, we have a lot of custom touches.... Komori color bars, form IDs for bindery and on and on...
We want to keep all of that responsibility and not add it to planning's shoulders.
So that's also why the planning software-to-Preps desire.
How will I laugh tomorrow...
when I can't even smile today?

born2print

Forgive any ignorance on my part as well, we are watching a few videos instead of paying $$$ for actual Metrix training.
How will I laugh tomorrow...
when I can't even smile today?

Joe

Quote from: born2print on February 24, 2023, 03:16:04 PMAlso, we have a lot of custom touches.... Komori color bars, form IDs for bindery and on and on...
We want to keep all of that responsibility and not add it to planning's shoulders.
So that's also why the planning software-to-Preps desire.
We always did all of that in prepress. We had no planning department. ;D
Mac OS Sonoma 14.2.1 (c) | (retired)

The seven ages of man: spills, drills, thrills, bills, ills, pills and wills.

born2print

And for perspective, planning used to number dummies, then unfold and hand-draw layouts. Then we would do that work all over again in Preps so you can imaging what a Godsend Upfront was and why we are so fond of it.
How will I laugh tomorrow...
when I can't even smile today?

Joe

Quote from: born2print on February 24, 2023, 03:17:33 PMForgive any ignorance on my part as well, we are watching a few videos instead of paying $$$ for actual Metrix training.
It is probably my ignorance here. I guess I didn't miss something we never had.
Mac OS Sonoma 14.2.1 (c) | (retired)

The seven ages of man: spills, drills, thrills, bills, ills, pills and wills.

born2print

Quote from: Joe on February 24, 2023, 03:18:21 PM
Quote from: born2print on February 24, 2023, 03:16:04 PMAlso, we have a lot of custom touches.... Komori color bars, form IDs for bindery and on and on...
We want to keep all of that responsibility and not add it to planning's shoulders.
So that's also why the planning software-to-Preps desire.
We always did all of that in prepress. We had no planning department. ;D
Exactly, it seems we are odd that we still compartmentalize estimating, planning and prepress.
But we can "meet it or beat it" which you can't do if only 1 brain works on it.
How will I laugh tomorrow...
when I can't even smile today?