Confirm this basic picture

[frailer]

Have rather shamefacedly reacquainted myself with the X-Rite 500. Sometimes it takes a "Vesta Situation" to get one's arse kicked along.
The crisis is going something like this.
-just changed to Fujifilm XMF, (APPE), from Celebrant RIP (CPSI).
-about 5 weeks ago had new heads put in the EPSON 7600. It's been bullet-proof, and decided to run it around the track again. But, (now foolishly, with hindsight), did not get Black Magic/EPSON re-done. "Looked good".   :embarrassed:
-get a job with heavy shadow detail, and fairly boggy pics. Things go wonky. Experienced people will be nodding and smiling.

So far, have done the following.
-calibration of setter.
-Output a test sheet. Black Magic of this will be of passing interest only until Fuji guy comes with his EyeOne and does the full Monty on BlMag/EPSON. Next week for this I hope.
But hope to run the plates this Monday, to at least assess what pressroom is printing, in the way of tint values. They should be printing 50% at 50% etc...

All this preamble finishes with a question. I want to confirm in my mind the interconnects.
Firstly, uncalibrated wedges output; measure, feed values back in...verify. Output calibrated plate wedge. Re-measure dot; confirm calibration.
We are using EuroscaleV2 Coated as our "plate curve", as we were very close to it, and it is effectively the new Aussie ISO now. We were travelling well with this under Celebrant for about a year.

So, at last, the question. The calibrated plate test should read 50% at %50%, 40% at 40% etc etc. But, when we output plates on jobs, the plate curve is applied so that 50%, say, becomes 46%, if there is an expected dot gain of 4% there. That's how it works, right?

Yeah, that was the question.   :laugh:

Oh yeah...nothing ever changes in the pressroom. But you knew that already. I mean, you've been told often enough. Don't you understand!  It must be in here that there's a problem.
Mwahahaha...wait 'till that X-Rite bleeps on the friggin' sheet, Monday morning.    :evil:

[Aaron]

But isn't dot gain assessed on press? A 4% difference on the plate wouldn't mean a 4% dot gain on paper, right?

[frailer]

If you want the press to print 50%, and they're going to add 4% to your plate dot; you'll need to give them 46% on plate. Or I may have to re-think my understanding of dot-gain-compensation.
My question is genuine. I'm just trying to get more control of this in-house on a day-to-day basis, rather than whistling in the wind between tech visits.    :undecided:

[Farabomb]

Pretty sure you're on the mark captain. Whatever the press gains you want to cut on the plate. It won't be perfect because different stocks will react differently so you'd want a median, not the max or min depending on what you normally run. At least that's what I have been lead to believe.

[Stiv]

Yep you got it. Linearize your plates to 1, 2, 5, 10, 20, 30, etc.

Then put the curve you want on it.

We have a curve for each unit on each press depending on the stock type.

[Chilbear]

Perhaps a smart call is to reproof a job from pre - RIP change and duplicate it with the new workflow.

Some shops believe in cutting back the dot to gain back on press but this is only correct for using one substrate (coated or uncoated). The majority I believe are linear off the platesetter and the press is responsible for their own mess. At least you "know" the platesetter is outputting 50% because you can measure it. Post press is another thing.

[t-pat]

Perhaps a smart call is to reproof a job from pre - RIP change and duplicate it with the new workflow.

Some shops believe in cutting back the dot to gain back on press but this is only correct for using one substrate (coated or uncoated). The majority I believe are linear off the platesetter and the press is responsible for their own mess. At least you "know" the platesetter is outputting 50% because you can measure it. Post press is another thing.

Our shop has 3 different Harmony curves for each press, one for gloss, one for matte, and one for offset & hi bulk. This is after many many hours spent fingerprinting the presses. The plate maker dude has to select the correct curve when outputting the plate, and pressmen have to remember to do so too when doing a remake. It's been a while since I've worked in the printing side of the business but I see work that looks just peachy, especially for webs.

But being linear is at least something. At least you know any deviation is on press, either in dot gain or some other press/chemistry/pressure issue. I've worked at shops that were so far off nothing ever looked right. They'd fight with jobs for hours, send everything back to prep for color correction, waste more plates and time, and still never get it right.

[frailer]

For some reason I'd always been a bit hazy on those 2 side-by-side, but separate, things. First you have to get your setter imaging 50% at 50% etc....through the range. Then, your plate curve is applied. Hazy I guess because not hands on enough in the past. Both our presses are 28" Komoris, and our stocks are nearly always quality coated.
Having said that, we are getting more "enviro" stuff drifting in; recycled from cardboard boxes and discarded raffia hats...stuff like that.  :shocked:
Better talk to tech about getting the EuroscaleV2. Uncoated in there as well, at least. Just a thought.

Thanks for the feedback. That is an encouraging thought, too, tpatterson.

But being linear is at least something. At least you know any deviation is on press, either in dot gain or some other press/chemistry/pressure issue. I've worked at shops that were so far off nothing ever looked right. They'd fight with jobs for hours, send everything back to prep for color correction, waste more plates and time, and still never get it right.

[Aaron]

How do you know the Euroscale V2 Uncoated/Coated curves are achieving the required dot gains on press? Do you have a spectro on press? All presses, conditions, variables will change your result on paper (or board). Wouldn't a custom curve be more effective?

I guess I've never understood the idea of linearizing the plate first and then footprinting the press. If I measure my plates out of the box that I'm going to use to footprint, I know what it should read on a day to day basis. What difference does it make that I linearize first if I am using a curve I built when footprinting the press?

But I guess if one was to use a canned curve then linearizing would be necessary wouldn't it?  :undecided:

I've been trying to wrap my brain around this for the past 2 years too. Fighting variations on press (which I hear you fraiser, NEVER anything wrong in the pressroom). Custom curves for different stocks. Of course I'm not helping myself printing in FM on a not to well maintained press.

[frailer]

How do you know the Euroscale V2 Uncoated/Coated curves are achieving the required dot gains on press?

The short answer is that Fuji tech came for re-linearise on Black Magic about a year ago, and the new Aussie ISO had just been adopted. We were so close, on testing, that he felt it a good thing to just move to that. Other things have come unstuck, I suspect. But I feel better about it than I did 2 days ago. Yep, we've booked him to come and complete the circle: footprint presses~Black Magic. Then I guess we'll see if they are still within the ballpark, or whether we'll have to move to a custom curve again.
Beyond that, I'm bouncing up against the ceiling of my knowledge on this stuff...and it's starting to hurt.   :laugh:

[frailer]

     "Test-the-printers'-dot-Day" today.  Wish me luck...   

     Found this to be quite illuminating..or "reflective". Something like that...

      Small PDF on Densitometry_X-Rite

[Aaron]

Good luck frailer! Good doc. I'm going to read it over. Any info I can get. I've self taught myself on color management and I'm not that good a prof.

Makes sense on your curve deal. Linearize and then use the stock curve. You can always ask management to get you an Xrite so you can have more control/verification on your own? And not have to wait for tech's to make their way in.

[frailer]

Good luck frailer! Good doc. I'm going to read it over. Any info I can get. I've self taught myself on color management and I'm not that good a prof.

Makes sense on your curve deal. Linearize and then use the stock curve. You can always ask management to get you an Xrite so you can have more control/verification on your own? And not have to wait for tech's to make their way in.

That's the thing. Have had one since CTP, couple of years ago.   :embarrassed:

BTW, judging by your avatar, you may be interested in this:

Monty Python DVD

Just out on DVD. A must have, by the sound of it. Chasing it down myself, later in the week...when this colour craziness is behind me.

[Aaron]

Ah... Well, an Xrite won't do it by itself though. Need a plate reader too. I have an ICPlate 2 reader and an Xrite Spectro. Now I can show the plant manager that my plate isn't moving and show him the dot gains that are going crazy on press with the Spectrodensitometer.

I'll check out that DVD. Watch "Before the Flying Circus" documentary not too long ago online through Netfix. Pretty good. Those bastards always made me laugh. I'll give this one a shot.

[G_Town]

Ah... Well, an Xrite won't do it by itself though. Need a plate reader too. I have an ICPlate 2 reader and an Xrite Spectro. Now I can show the plant manager that my plate isn't moving and show him the dot gains that are going crazy on press with the Spectrodensitometer.

I'll check out that DVD. Watch "Before the Flying Circus" documentary not too long ago online through Netfix. Pretty good. Those bastards always made me laugh. I'll give this one a shot.

We have a log book where we measure a 50% on every K plate and another sheet where we log the processor settings, conductivity, plate count etc...

Keeps the pressman out of the plate room with their "something must be wrong with the processor" comments.