What do you guys think. I have sat through demonstrations on both and it seems to me that Prinergy is far ahead of XMF. My fuji rep keeps telling me all of the Kodak horror stories and i know that is a sales tactic but i do not have any experience with Prinergy or Kodak but i also know a lot of you do. Im looking to switch over to Prinergy with Preps or XMF. I will also be purchasing a platesetter so the options they are giving me are Kodaks achieve 400 with single cassette loader or Fuji's Dart 4300. Im looking to go completely chem free. Thanks in advance.
You know, I don't know what this sales tactic is to shit-talk about the competitor, but it really turns me off. If your product is good, smack-talking is about the last thing you should do, especially if I don't ask. IF I do indeed ask, by all means tell me your horror stories... but to freely just use them to snag a sale just screams desperation.
My Fuji rep did the same thing, and I can honestly tell you, it really, really made me reconsider switching to XMF. Before he voluntarily started talking shit about Prinergy, I was as good as sold on it. After, I decided to call Kodak and have them come in and talk.
At the end of the ordeal, Prinergy ended up winning out because of certain things it could do that XMF can't. It was just a better fit for my company. That was a couple years ago. I haven't seen the Fuji rep since.
I'm not gonna say Fuji is bad... but they have some people that definitely need to learn to keep their mouth shut.
ok great. im not alone. i was really set to switch to xmf as well. but now kodak is looking like the way to go. what are you paying for support and are the software upgrades included? they are telling me that for $621 a month i am basically covered for everything except the hardware when it comes time to replace it. im not too happy about the hardware being dell either. i have had some bad experiences with dells in the past. i hope they have sorted there crap out. thats $7500 annually which doesn't seem too bad considering i was led to believe that number was going to be $24,000.
we have Prinergy here and have never had any issues with the Dell equipment. That being said, we just got 3 new Dell servers to replace the older ones we had.
and you will have a lot of dollar signs with Kodak, that I know for sure.
in what respect? over the $7500 a year service on prinergy w/ preps?
Prinergy user here. We switched from Prinergy to XMF last November. We switched back to Prinergy last November as well. I am not going to bad mouth XMF. It is a great workflow but not quite as intuitive as Prinergy. There isn't a doubt in my mind we could have used XMF but basically we were spoiled by already using Prinergy.
The cost of Prinergy is about double+ of XMF. Our FULL support contract with Prinergy/Insite/Preps runs about $23K per year which includes all minor and major updates plus on call support 13 hours a day 5 days a week. Onsite support runs extra. With Fuji that support would have ran about $7500 per year.
I don't have anything bad to say about XMF, actually, I was quite impressed with a lot of the features. I'm just not a fan of salesman in any way, and to me there is nothing douchier than bad mouthing competition. It's a cheap blow.
I did a demo of XMF, and I can't remember exactly what it was, but there was one major factor that kept me from signing off right away. The sale puke really pissed me off on his bullshit, then Kodak came in and offered Prinergy at the same price as XMF if I signed up by the end of the year. Couldn't turn a deal like that down.
I pay about what Joe does. I have a full service contract, and you will need it. Especially for the first year getting all the bugs and kinks out of the system after install.
One thing I will say about Kodak, they do NOT talk shit. At least the guys I deal with. Very professional and very accommodating.
The Nexpress guys are fucking retards, but the CTP and Prinergy guys are pretty solid.
is my $7500 quote for service less than yours because i am only getting the entry version without the databasing and a floating license for preps? Because $7500 i can handle. $23k i cant.
Sounds like you are getting EVO instead of CONNECT. EVO doesn't have the database so support is a little cheaper. But there are different levels of support. I think they call it plus that is the same as mine except you don't get the major releases of updates. For example if you were running Prinergy 5 you would get 5.1, 5.2, 5.3, etc...but you would have to pay for Prinergy 6. Same with Preps and Insite if you are getting it. $7,500 sounds about right for that level of support for EVO. Before we switched to the FULL support plan I think we were paying around $9K per year but we have CONNECT instead of EVO which would mean it would cost more.
Your support is also based on the features you buy. There is a monthly support fee for every feature that you buy that add up to the total of your support. So the more features you buy the higher your support will be. If after buying Prinergy you decide you need a new feature you will have to pay for that feature plus your support will go up by the monthly support charge of that feature.
KODAK is not a cheap workflow to use. But it is good.
The inside salesman from kodak made it sound like they did away with evo and connect and now they just have the one version of prinergy with or without databasing. and he also told me that my support included all version upgrades. told me that the next version of insite was due out q2 of 2015 that takes the software to 100% html5 and that i would get that upgrade. so i will have to check back with him tomorrow to see what is going on.
Quote from: jay12345 on December 17, 2014, 05:18:43 PMThe inside salesman from kodak made it sound like they did away with evo and connect and now they just have the one version of prinergy with or without databasing. and he also told me that my support included all version upgrades. told me that the next version of insite was due out q2 of 2015 that takes the software to 100% html5 and that i would get that upgrade. so i will have to check back with him tomorrow to see what is going on.
Let me translate some kodak speak there...."due out q2 of 2015" = might be made available to early production by that time but allow 6 months just to be safe. What does early production mean? It means it is basically beta software that they get people to test and report back. You have to apply for Early Production status and you are not guaranteed to get it. So basically "due out q2 of 2015" means if you are really lucky you might see it in full production in early to mid 2016.
The two Kodak products have always been Prinergy CONNECT had the database and RBA if you want to pay for it while Prinergy EVO does not have the database or RBA. They might have switched the names up but it is still the same thing. Both are called Prinergy though.
And yes I would verify that and get it in writing that you get major version upgrades for that price and not just minor version upgrades. I would bet that price does not cover major version upgrades. If it does we have some bones to pick with someone at Kodak.
OK.. so i just got off the phone with Kodak and this is the story. This past year they did away with the prinergy evo/connect and now it is just connect with or without rba. the difference between evo and connect was the oracal databasing but now everyone gets that and the only difference being the rba. as for the service and support the quote he has given me includes all upgrades of prinergy/insight/preps. including versions. yes i know it is hard to believe but i do have this in writing. the only difference between the plus and advanced service and support is the hardware coverage for the computers. he said they dont typically quote the advanced anymore because you can get the same exact coverage on the hardware through dell for half the price. they will only be taking a support contract with dell in our name and placing the call for us when there is a problem. does this sound legit? i hope so.
oh and how do i get an avatar? is that only for the ELITE? :mrt:
I pity da fool who don't have an avatar. :mrt:
Quote from: jay12345 on December 18, 2014, 08:29:52 AMoh and how do i get an avatar? is that only for the ELITE? :mrt:
Click here.
Quote from: jay12345 on December 18, 2014, 08:27:27 AMOK.. so i just got off the phone with Kodak and this is the story. This past year they did away with the prinergy evo/connect and now it is just connect with or without rba. the difference between evo and connect was the oracal databasing but now everyone gets that and the only difference being the rba. as for the service and support the quote he has given me includes all upgrades of prinergy/insight/preps. including versions. yes i know it is hard to believe but i do have this in writing. the only difference between the plus and advanced service and support is the hardware coverage for the computers. he said they dont typically quote the advanced anymore because you can get the same exact coverage on the hardware through dell for half the price. they will only be taking a support contract with dell in our name and placing the call for us when there is a problem. does this sound legit? i hope so.
I guess that means we are going to have to have a discussion about the price of our support contract with Kodak. Thanks for the info.
yeah really. sounds like they changed there model and never let you know. why would they..
Quote from: jay12345 on December 18, 2014, 12:34:34 PMyeah really. sounds like they changed there model and never let you know. why would they..
It could be the old "offer the new customer a great deal to set the hook and we'll put the screws to him in year two" like they do with plate deals.
Actually I'll bet that is it. I know they will never drop our support down to $7500 and include major updates to existing applications. Once they've got you...they've got you for good.
Quote from: Joe on December 18, 2014, 11:33:44 AMQuote from: jay12345 on December 18, 2014, 08:29:52 AMoh and how do i get an avatar? is that only for the ELITE? :mrt:
and then? my only option is no avatar and i cant deselect it.
Click here.
Quote from: jay12345 on December 18, 2014, 12:34:34 PMyeah really. sounds like they changed there model and never let you know. why would they..
Also, is that price with or without RBA?
without.
Quote from: jay12345 on December 18, 2014, 01:05:10 PMQuote from: Joe on December 18, 2014, 11:33:44 AMQuote from: jay12345 on December 18, 2014, 08:29:52 AMoh and how do i get an avatar? is that only for the ELITE? :mrt:
Click here.
and then? my only option is no avatar and i cant deselect it.
Hmmmm...must be based on some kind of post count before it allows you to create one. I have more options than that. I will check into it. This is new software that I haven't been using for very long so I'm still learning the ins and outs.
yeah likely so. i kinda figured that out when i finally did not have to enter the letters off the annoying image and type indesign on my 11th post... :)
Quote from: jay12345 on December 18, 2014, 01:16:39 PMyeah likely so. i kinda figured that out when i finally did not have to enter the letters off the annoying image and type indesign on my 11th post... :)
OK, you should now see the options to let you set an avatar. If not, logout and back in.
BTW...welcome to the forum.
PERFECTO......
Quote from: jay12345 on December 18, 2014, 02:03:20 PMPERFECTO......
Nice avatar.
Back to the subject though...
Can you tell me which if any of these options you are getting:
- Refine 1 Additional Engine
- PDF Batch Trapping
- Hi-Res Output to File
- 2-Client 5 Pack
- Advance Preflighting
- PDF Compare
- Web Growth Compensation
- Archiver
- Preps Floating License
- InSite Upgrade - Add 5 users
Quote from: Joe on December 18, 2014, 01:03:59 PMIt could be the old "offer the new customer a great deal to set the hook and we'll put the screws to him in year two" like they do with plate deals.
A certain company here, associated with the Bayer Group, were quite good at that, too. :-X
Yeah, difficult choice. Prinergy has the mileage and 'robustness', by the sounds. Here, were were on the old Fujifilm PostScript® RIP, Celebra, so transitioned to XMF when APPE came along. Our needs are simpler than a place like Joe's, and we like it overall. The best aspect is the fully integrated imposition, which seems to get better each time. But we do a lot of one-off/bespoke stuff, along with repeat, and it's great for that.
Not so great for multi-web work, by the sounds.
And yeah, selling by bagging the oppositions product, or company, never a good sales look.
Quote from: Joe on December 18, 2014, 02:19:48 PMQuote from: jay12345 on December 18, 2014, 02:03:20 PMPERFECTO......
Nice avatar.
Back to the subject though...
Can you tell me which if any of these options you are getting:
- Refine 1 Additional Engine
- PDF Batch Trapping
- Hi-Res Output to File
- 2-Client 5 Pack
- Advance Preflighting
- PDF Compare
- Web Growth Compensation
- Archiver
- Preps Floating License
- InSite Upgrade - Add 5 users
Entry Software
Output Pack for 4up
PDF Batch Trapping
Advanced Preflight
PDF Production Tools - Single Instance
Preps floating license
Preps online training - 2 days 1 seat
Kodak Performance Plus Workflow Server... lol dell computer
Refine/Output online training 3 days 1 seat
Kodak ColorFlow Software Training online 4 hours 1 seat
Setup and Startup - 5 days
Kodak Insight - 5 concurrent user 2 render
another fancy dell computer
Kodak Insight - onsite training 2 days
Configure DMZ.... $2,000 LMAO
Thanks for that info. Looks like we do have quite a few more features but not enough to justify $23,000 compared to $7,500.
yeah it looks like the features can really add up. i dont really have a need for the rba just yet and that adds quite a bit by itself. he did mention the archive ad on but made it sound like all it added was your notes to the archive. the software still packages and archives the entire job just without the correspondence data i guess.
does it feel like preps is integrated into this software like xmf's is. or somewhat close to it? or does it launch another application. it was kinda tough to tell in the webex and i have never used the earlier versions of prinergy so im not sure how the new system compares.
Quote from: jay12345 on December 18, 2014, 03:47:26 PMyeah it looks like the features can really add up. i dont really have a need for the rba just yet and that adds quite a bit by itself. he did mention the archive ad on but made it sound like all it added was your notes to the archive. the software still packages and archives the entire job just without the correspondence data i guess.
does it feel like preps is integrated into this software like xmf's is. or somewhat close to it? or does it launch another application. it was kinda tough to tell in the webex and i have never used the earlier versions of prinergy so im not sure how the new system compares.
Not sure if your comes with integrated imposition or not. It is called the Prinergy Signature Selection Tool. Basically you create the imposition and it opens that where you pick your templates, create your pageset, set your bleed and creep and go. You don't even need Preps but it doesn't have all of the features of Preps like using fold patterns, automatic shingling and bottling, etc. If you still use templates you will need Preps to create/modify them. And if you would rather just impose in Preps you can. Prinergy will launch Preps where you make your imposition and then "Save and return to Prinergy. So yeah it is integrated in a couple of different ways. The integrated imposition in XMF reminds me an awful lot of using Preps 7.
I think if you don't get the archive add-on you can't archive. We have the archive add-on and RBA which allows you to automate the archive. If you don't buy the archive add-on I think your only form of archiving is to export the job to zip file which does not keep the archive info in the database. And it also does not archive the source files or any notes. I think you probably do wan tthe archive funtionality where the database keeps track of the archived info.
thanks i will look into that.
I'm running EVO here and I just manually backup old jobs and pull files if a reprint is needed. It's not hard at all but it would depend on how much reprint work you do. It's minimal here.
And welcome to the asylum.