Settle a debate - curves applied in RIP vs. with customer

Started by ninjaPB_43, November 15, 2017, 10:37:08 AM

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ninjaPB_43

I would like the opinions of this fine community regarding matching customer-supplied color proofs.

Would the majority of you think it's better to apply small curves at the RIP in prepress so that your proofs match the customer's supplied proofs (assuming they are running a true color managed proofer and not some shitty laser) -OR- would the majority of you prefer to work with the customer to put .icc profiles in place within the design/marketing firm so that as they design (and sign off internally on color and content) they are seeing it as it will reproduce once it gets to your shop?


Another way to look at this debate -

Printer's prepress dept has MANY preset curves named by customer (the repetitive ones)
-OR-
Customer has MANY .icc profiles loaded named after which printer they will be sending the project to 

Edit: I removed the poll. I'm rusty at internettzing, forgive me. :D
People will notice the change in your attitude towards them, but won't notice their behavior that made you change.  -Bob Marley

Ear

Curves are for the specific device. How the F would the client have access to press characterization? And without that, what? People just using arbitrary curves, close their eyes, pray for the best and come unglued a week later when their stuff looks like shit?

NO client color management!

When I do see icc tags, I use a PitStop action to remove them. Nothing but heartache involved in generic profiling. 
"... profile says he's a seven-foot tall ex-basketball pro, Hindu guru drag queen alien." ~Jet Black

ninjaPB_43

Quote from: Ear on November 15, 2017, 11:52:23 AMCurves are for the specific device. How the F would the client have access to press characterization? And without that, what? People just using arbitrary curves, close their eyes, pray for the best and come unglued a week later when their stuff looks like shit?

NO client color management!

When I do see icc tags, I use a PitStop action to remove them. Nothing but heartache involved in generic profiling.
Very passionate response Ear..   :lmao: 

I agree wholeheartedly with you. 

We currently are setup and running Gracol here, and sending proofs to our vendors to match. Many times we get proofs back from our vendors and they do not match our proofs. Our proofs are a bit more yellow.  In my mind - our printers should be applying an adjustment curve in the RIP to bump up the yellow and make the proofs match ours prior to sending them back to us to approve - not just sending us proofs run straight through as is and saying "welp, that's what we get from your file".  

Quad even went as far as to say they "lost" our proofs, and tried to sell my coworker on their proofs for the press check. I mean of course THEIR proofs matched the press dead nuts. But, we have 50 different people internally that already looked at, and made adjustments to, a bunch of photos to get the color they were wanting. 

Am I wrong? 

The belief here seems to be that "printers are not able to hit our proofs and that's just the way it is and we'll just have to make the adjustments (to bring the yellow up) on press checks"...   I think that's BS. 
People will notice the change in your attitude towards them, but won't notice their behavior that made you change.  -Bob Marley

David

Quote from: ninjaPB_43 on November 15, 2017, 12:45:42 PMQuad even went as far as to say they "lost" our proofs, and tried to sell my coworker on their proofs for the press check. I mean of course THEIR proofs matched the press dead nuts. But, we have 50 different people internally that already looked at, and made adjustments to, a bunch of photos to get the color they were wanting.

Am I wrong?
The belief here seems to be that "printers are not able to hit our proofs and that's just the way it is and we'll just have to make the adjustments (to bring the yellow up) on press checks"...  I think that's BS.

Here's my take on this...
of the people that were making the color adjustments to the images, how many had calibrated monitors?
The guys at Quad do
of the people that were making color adjustments, how many have a calibrated printer in their office?
The guys at Quad have tons
of the people that were making color adjustments, how many have a viewing room or booth with calibrated lights for viewing?
once again, Quad has a lot

That's the reason they can match their proofs, virtually 100% of the time.

We had clients come in with prints off their laser printer at the office and force us to match them because that's what they sold their client on, forget the fact that it was washed out, had no shadow detail and basically had sucky color. We would spend hours correcting their files to match their "proof", just to get it on press and then have the customer decide their proofs were crap and could we do "something" to make them better.

If you are running Gracol (I am assuming you are not doing printing in your facility, just proofing?), then unless the printer you send the files to are also Gracol certified, they will never match. Being Gracol certified means that they are shooting for gray balance, not density or color so much.

And, as an aside, if you are Gracol, why are your proofs yellow?
Prepress guy - Retired - Working from home
Livin' la Vida Loca

ninjaPB_43

#4
Quote from: david on November 15, 2017, 01:16:37 PM
Quote from: ninjaPB_43 on November 15, 2017, 12:45:42 PMQuad even went as far as to say they "lost" our proofs, and tried to sell my coworker on their proofs for the press check. I mean of course THEIR proofs matched the press dead nuts. But, we have 50 different people internally that already looked at, and made adjustments to, a bunch of photos to get the color they were wanting.

Am I wrong?
The belief here seems to be that "printers are not able to hit our proofs and that's just the way it is and we'll just have to make the adjustments (to bring the yellow up) on press checks"...  I think that's BS.

Here's my take on this...
of the people that were making the color adjustments to the images, how many had calibrated monitors?
The guys at Quad do
of the people that were making color adjustments, how many have a calibrated printer in their office?
The guys at Quad have tons
of the people that were making color adjustments, how many have a viewing room or booth with calibrated lights for viewing?
once again, Quad has a lot

That's the reason they can match their proofs, virtually 100% of the time.

We had clients come in with prints off their laser printer at the office and force us to match them because that's what they sold their client on, forget the fact that it was washed out, had no shadow detail and basically had sucky color. We would spend hours correcting their files to match their "proof", just to get it on press and then have the customer decide their proofs were crap and could we do "something" to make them better.

If you are running Gracol (I am assuming you are not doing printing in your facility, just proofing?), then unless the printer you send the files to are also Gracol certified, they will never match. Being Gracol certified means that they are shooting for gray balance, not density or color so much.

And, as an aside, if you are Gracol, why are your proofs yellow?
The reviewed proofs (by all individuals) are done in a light booth over at the photo studio and proofs run on Epson proofers that match my team's proofers perfectly. My team runs the final proofs that go to our vendors who are also Gracol. 
Our proofs aren't yellow, they just don't match the proofs we are getting back from our vendors. I'm trying to figure out why and a solution so we aren't constnatly trying to make adjustments on press to match our proofs.

Edit: I get that we'll always have to make some adjustments on-press and some compromises due to how the pages layout and how adjacent colors are affecting each other.  My goal right now is to get our proofs to match our vendors proofs so we have a better starting point on press...
People will notice the change in your attitude towards them, but won't notice their behavior that made you change.  -Bob Marley

Joe

Are you making your proofs on the exact paper that is going to be on the press?

Printers, some that is, work very hard to make their proofing system match their press. A closed loop system. It is much easier to adjust a printer as opposed to a press. When you introduce a proof that is outside of that closed loop you are throwing a turd in the punch bowl. Send your files to the printer and get return proofs from them. View and correct to those proofs. Your printers are never going to match the printers press. But you can adjust your files based on the printers proofs and then it is up to the printer to match their own proofs.
Mac OS Sonoma 14.2.1 (c) | (retired)

The seven ages of man: spills, drills, thrills, bills, ills, pills and wills.

ninjaPB_43

Quote from: Joe on November 15, 2017, 01:46:19 PMAre you making your proofs on the exact paper that is going to be on the press?

Printers, some that is, work very hard to make their proofing system match their press. A closed loop system. It is much easier to adjust a printer as opposed to a press. When you introduce a proof that is outside of that closed loop you are throwing a turd in the punch bowl. Send your files to the printer and get return proofs from them. View and correct to those proofs. Your printers are never going to match the printers press. But you can adjust your files based on the printers proofs and then it is up to the printer to match their own proofs.

I'm not trying to have our proof match the press sheet, as much as I want the printer's proof to match ours -OR- vice-versa make our proofs match the printer's. That's the original question I was trying to ask, and it sounds like you are on the side of the debate of making the adjustment to the file at the marketing firm/agency/customer instead of at the printing facility.  (FYI - I'm not sure either answer is more right or wrong than the other - but probably depends more on where the skill lies...)
People will notice the change in your attitude towards them, but won't notice their behavior that made you change.  -Bob Marley

Joe

I'm just saying that most printers are not willing to make changes to their press for all of their different customers. The press is the constant (supposedly). All others must adjust to it.
Mac OS Sonoma 14.2.1 (c) | (retired)

The seven ages of man: spills, drills, thrills, bills, ills, pills and wills.

ninjaPB_43

Quote from: Joe on November 15, 2017, 01:59:50 PMI'm just saying that most printers are not willing to make changes to their press for all of their different customers. The press is the constant (supposedly). All others must adjust to it.

ok, I get what you're saying now...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but by applying a curve to increase yellow slightly at the RIP would affect the printer's proof as well as the plates (which in turn would adjust what the press produces)? The press would still be a constant, with the adjustment being made in prepress instead of at the customer end.  Especially if the customer has already invested in, and set up running Gracol for their internal proofing ahead of releasing files to the printer?
People will notice the change in your attitude towards them, but won't notice their behavior that made you change.  -Bob Marley

David

if all it needed was a touch of yellow, I would just use a curve and call it a day.
No need to reinvent the wheel.
Prepress guy - Retired - Working from home
Livin' la Vida Loca

Ear

This also goes for digital. Closed loop system is the only way to ensure consistency. 

I just helped a local sign/sticker business, all digital, get color calibrated. They were using client based icc profiles and NOTHING matched. This was fine, when they were doing little bumper stickers and such, but they started to get big accounts where they would do signs and car wraps. Of course nothing matched and the clients were pissed.

I took a look at their environment and recommended a color management specialist that I use. He cam in and got them all on a nice, closed loop color control system and now they can keep clients happy. 

I'm saying, if you're a little copy shoppe, with one or two devices, doing coffee punch cards and dog grooming business cards, sure, let the clients manage color, who cares. If you want to get serious and be a professional, commercial print shop, you must have control of color on the prepress end. Fact.
"... profile says he's a seven-foot tall ex-basketball pro, Hindu guru drag queen alien." ~Jet Black

ninjaPB_43

Quote from: david on November 15, 2017, 02:22:24 PMif all it needed was a touch of yellow, I would just use a curve and call it a day.
No need to reinvent the wheel.

Just to be clear - at the RIP or at the customer?
People will notice the change in your attitude towards them, but won't notice their behavior that made you change.  -Bob Marley

Ear

Quote from: ninjaPB_43 on November 15, 2017, 12:45:42 PM
Quote from: Ear on November 15, 2017, 11:52:23 AMCurves are for the specific device. How the F would the client have access to press characterization? And without that, what? People just using arbitrary curves, close their eyes, pray for the best and come unglued a week later when their stuff looks like shit?

NO client color management!

When I do see icc tags, I use a PitStop action to remove them. Nothing but heartache involved in generic profiling.
Very passionate response Ear..  :lmao:

I agree wholeheartedly with you.
Hey man, this is mah bread-n-butter. I almost got in a fist fight over color management once.  :rotf: ... say anything you want about me, but try tagging your own images or you'll get a dirt nap... or at least a heartfelt scolding.
"... profile says he's a seven-foot tall ex-basketball pro, Hindu guru drag queen alien." ~Jet Black

ninjaPB_43

Quote from: Ear on November 15, 2017, 02:36:51 PMHey man, this is mah bread-n-butter. I almost got in a fist fight over color management once.  :rotf: ... say anything you want about me, but try tagging your own images or you'll get a dirt nap... or at least a heartfelt scolding.

 :git off mah lawn:    :spy2: :popcorn:
People will notice the change in your attitude towards them, but won't notice their behavior that made you change.  -Bob Marley

Joe

Quote from: ninjaPB_43 on November 15, 2017, 02:16:17 PM
Quote from: Joe on November 15, 2017, 01:59:50 PMI'm just saying that most printers are not willing to make changes to their press for all of their different customers. The press is the constant (supposedly). All others must adjust to it.

ok, I get what you're saying now...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but by applying a curve to increase yellow slightly at the RIP would affect the printer's proof as well as the plates (which in turn would adjust what the press produces)? The press would still be a constant, with the adjustment being made in prepress instead of at the customer end.  Especially if the customer has already invested in, and set up running Gracol for their internal proofing ahead of releasing files to the printer?

So the printer should have adjustment curves for every customer they have and the prepress person has to apply that particular curve at plate output time? I hope I'm dead before I see that trend spread.
Mac OS Sonoma 14.2.1 (c) | (retired)

The seven ages of man: spills, drills, thrills, bills, ills, pills and wills.