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Workflows => Artwork Systems => Topic started by: DCurry on September 05, 2012, 03:21:43 PM

Title: Merge CMY into K
Post by: DCurry on September 05, 2012, 03:21:43 PM
Does anyone know of a way in Nexus to merge the CMY plates into the K plate?

My scenario involves a PDF with some CMY gray matter that really needs to print on the K plate, and for some reason nothing I do in Pitstop will change this stuff, even converting the entire page to gray. Very weird.

My workflow involves sending JDF from Preps. I was hopeful I could alias the inks printing from Preps, but apparently you can't do that with process inks into other process inks.
Title: Re: Merge CMY into K
Post by: Joe on September 05, 2012, 03:24:09 PM
Pitstop V. 10 update 3 should be able to remap the separations to the black.
Title: Re: Merge CMY into K
Post by: DigitalCrapShoveler on September 05, 2012, 03:30:29 PM
Making them grayscale in Pitstop doesn't work, Dan? That is odd. Are you changing the output intent?
Title: Re: Merge CMY into K
Post by: Joe on September 05, 2012, 03:54:20 PM
Quote from: DigitalCrapShoveler on September 05, 2012, 03:30:29 PMMaking them grayscale in Pitstop doesn't work, Dan? That is odd. Are you changing the output intent?

I run across PDFs like this every now and then that no matter what you do they still display in all colors but when I output they only come out in the black. I think it is an Acrobat issue.
Title: Re: Merge CMY into K
Post by: andyfest on September 05, 2012, 05:12:25 PM
Quote from: DCurry on September 05, 2012, 03:21:43 PMDoes anyone know of a way in Nexus to merge the CMY plates into the K plate?

My scenario involves a PDF with some CMY gray matter that really needs to print on the K plate, and for some reason nothing I do in Pitstop will change this stuff, even converting the entire page to gray. Very weird.

My workflow involves sending JDF from Preps. I was hopeful I could alias the inks printing from Preps, but apparently you can't do that with process inks into other process inks.
If you are outputting 1 bits from nexus, you could merge them all into the K tiff using DotSpy.
Title: Re: Merge CMY into K
Post by: DCurry on September 05, 2012, 05:33:37 PM
No, Pitstop doesn't do the trick no matter what I try. It's not version 10 - probably 8 or 9. Not only does it display wrong, but it rips wrong, too. I'm making sure to strip out all ICC profiles, too, as that can cause weirdness sometimes.

The Dotspy trick is a good idea - can you point me in the right direction? I've only used it to look at the ripped files, not actually edit them.

I'm shocked that there's not a way to tell Nexus to do this in the first place - even really old rips like PS/M could do it easily.
Title: Re: Merge CMY into K
Post by: andyfest on September 05, 2012, 05:41:16 PM
I'll check into it in the am Dan. I believe you put a dupe of all of the applicable tiffs into one folder, drop into DotSpy and under one of the menus (Edit?), there is an option to merge the tiffs into one. I'll let you know for sure tomorrow.
Title: Re: Merge CMY into K
Post by: DigiCorn on September 05, 2012, 06:03:01 PM
Quote from: DCurry on September 05, 2012, 03:21:43 PMDoes anyone know of a way in Nexus to merge the CMY plates into the K plate?

My scenario involves a PDF with some CMY gray matter that really needs to print on the K plate, and for some reason nothing I do in Pitstop will change this stuff, even converting the entire page to gray. Very weird.

My workflow involves sending JDF from Preps. I was hopeful I could alias the inks printing from Preps, but apparently you can't do that with process inks into other process inks.
Don't know Nexus, but Rampage has a "Multi-Burn" option that lets you do this. You'd have to create a phone K sep on the CMY portion to get it to work right - it won't merge on a sep that doesn't exist.
Title: Re: Merge CMY into K
Post by: frailer on September 05, 2012, 06:34:44 PM
FWIW, which may be nothing, I always use Preflight>Fixups>Convert to Gray in Acrobat. Seems to work when PitStop and other tricks fail. Maybe do a bespoke Optimise reSave beforehand.    :undecided:  Could shake some stuff out that's tripping it up.
Title: Re: Merge CMY into K
Post by: Greg_Firestone on September 06, 2012, 10:17:58 AM
 Hey Dan,

Would you be able to post the file or a sample? I'd like to see if my software can fix it.

Greg
Title: Re: Merge CMY into K
Post by: Lammy on September 06, 2012, 11:11:43 AM
Quote from: DigiCorn on September 05, 2012, 06:03:01 PMDon't know Nexus, but Rampage has a "Multi-Burn" option that lets you do this. You'd have to create a phone K sep on the CMY portion to get it to work right - it won't merge on a sep that doesn't exist.

The better way in Rampage is just to use a profile that is set to grayscale for the color space. I forget exactly where you set this up since it's been quite a while since I've been in front of a Rampage system.

Either way, doesn't do the guy any good if he's running Nexus now does it.  :undecided:
Title: Re: Merge CMY into K
Post by: DigiCorn on September 06, 2012, 11:19:31 AM
Quote from: Lammy on September 06, 2012, 11:11:43 AM
Quote from: DigiCorn on September 05, 2012, 06:03:01 PMDon't know Nexus, but Rampage has a "Multi-Burn" option that lets you do this. You'd have to create a phone K sep on the CMY portion to get it to work right - it won't merge on a sep that doesn't exist.

The better way in Rampage is just to use a profile that is set to grayscale for the color space. I forget exactly where you set this up since it's been quite a while since I've been in front of a Rampage system.

Either way, doesn't do the guy any good if he's running Nexus now does it.  :undecided:
I misread your issue. I thought it was a 4-color job. Yes, in the OUTPUT tab of Rampage, you can convert all to grayscale. I have a special queue dedicated to it.
Title: Re: Merge CMY into K
Post by: andyfest on September 07, 2012, 12:05:25 PM
Quote from: DCurry on September 05, 2012, 05:33:37 PMNo, Pitstop doesn't do the trick no matter what I try. It's not version 10 - probably 8 or 9. Not only does it display wrong, but it rips wrong, too. I'm making sure to strip out all ICC profiles, too, as that can cause weirdness sometimes.

The Dotspy trick is a good idea - can you point me in the right direction? I've only used it to look at the ripped files, not actually edit them.

I'm shocked that there's not a way to tell Nexus to do this in the first place - even really old rips like PS/M could do it easily.
Sorry Dan - forgot to check - way too busy this week. I'll leave a note for myself for Monday. Must be getting old...  :old:
Title: Re: Merge CMY into K
Post by: DCurry on September 07, 2012, 03:03:14 PM
That's okay - I haven't had a chance to get back to this job anyway.

My boss said that there is a way to merge the channels in the Nexus rip, but she doesn't like to do that because she wants the file to be right so if we have to re-process it sometime it will be correct. I agree with this only partially - in my mind, if you set up a good workflow to convert and/or merge crap like this, you just always use it and save yourself some headaches. Especially considering this is a book printer and deal with high page counts and it gets pretty tedious checking stuff out with Pitstop.

Greg - as soon as I get back to the job I'll try to get you a page of it to mess with.
Title: Re: Merge CMY into K
Post by: abc on September 08, 2012, 01:58:32 AM
Hi Dan
Can you post or send me the file, would like to take a look in Pitstop, which functionality did you try it with and what version do you have?
Title: Re: Merge CMY into K
Post by: andyfest on September 10, 2012, 01:31:14 PM
Ok - if merging in DotSpy, drop the folder containing the tiffs you want to merge into DotSpy. Then go to the File menu: File/Save Selection Merged. It will ask you where you want to locate the merged tiff, then create a merged tiff with "merged" in the name. I also check the Prefs in DotSpy and pick the compression that I want for the tiff - usually I just save "as input file" (see attached screenshots).
Title: Re: Merge CMY into K
Post by: RMPrepress on September 10, 2012, 03:12:01 PM
In the very very rare instance that pitstop doesn't fix this and you really want to get the file right we will try saving as .ps and then redistilling to pdf then try pitstop again or try the convert colors palette in Acrobat ...but be careful...be very careful and select Convert colors to output intent, then choose the Dot gain 20% and check off preserve black. This will change all cmyk images and type to grayscale but if you have K text make sure it is all cmyk K and not grayscale K or it will get screened back....OUCH!

We have Pitstop 11 on all of our workstations now and it runs better than ever, with many more options for fixing the junk we get from customers. We also have Pitstop Server 11 and if you have a high volume of these crap pdfs it works real fast and is very reliable.
 
Or just fix with dotspy.... :laugh:
Title: Re: Merge CMY into K
Post by: DCurry on September 10, 2012, 05:08:52 PM
So, if I do the Dotspy method, since the 1-bit tiffs are already screened, won't it essentially give me a grayscalerosette pattern?
Title: Re: Merge CMY into K
Post by: DCurry on September 11, 2012, 02:56:28 PM
Quote from: frailer on September 05, 2012, 06:34:44 PMFWIW, which may be nothing, I always use Preflight>Fixups>Convert to Gray in Acrobat. Seems to work when PitStop and other tricks fail.

This did the trick!

I'm still working on getting some sample pages to post for everyone' experimentation. I keep forgetting my thumb drive.
Title: Re: Merge CMY into K
Post by: andyfest on September 11, 2012, 05:15:03 PM
Quote from: DCurry on September 10, 2012, 05:08:52 PMSo, if I do the Dotspy method, since the 1-bit tiffs are already screened, won't it essentially give me a grayscalerosette pattern?
Ummmmm.....yes.
Title: Re: Merge CMY into K
Post by: DCurry on September 11, 2012, 07:04:30 PM
Then that's not what I want to do - that would look weird. No matter, as mentioned above I resolved the issue using Acrobat's built-in preflight fixups.
Title: Re: Merge CMY into K
Post by: DCurry on September 12, 2012, 03:04:33 PM
Here's a page from the PDF for anyone who wants to see what's going on. I was using Acrobat 8.2.1 with Pitstop 7.51. I do have a newer version (Pitstop 10, update 3), but haven't been using it because I dislike Acrobat X's interface. I did not try to convert to gray with the newer one - just the older one.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/33794637/grayweird.pdf
Title: Re: Merge CMY into K
Post by: Lammy on September 12, 2012, 03:13:38 PM
Quote from: DCurry on September 07, 2012, 03:03:14 PM... in my mind, if you set up a good workflow to convert and/or merge crap like this, you just always use it and save yourself some headaches....

You would be correct sir.
Title: Re: Merge CMY into K
Post by: Joe on September 12, 2012, 04:52:00 PM
Quote from: DCurry on September 12, 2012, 03:04:33 PMHere's a page from the PDF for anyone who wants to see what's going on. I was using Acrobat 8.2.1 with Pitstop 7.51. I do have a newer version (Pitstop 10, update 3), but haven't been using it because I dislike Acrobat X's interface. I did not try to convert to gray with the newer one - just the older one.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/33794637/grayweird.pdf

Yeah, that is weird. Latest Pitstop doesn't touch it. Acrobat Preflight "Convert to Gray" works though.
Title: Re: Merge CMY into K
Post by: DigitalCrapShoveler on September 12, 2012, 05:36:40 PM
It's got something to do with the text being a form. I haven't got it completely figured out yet.
Title: Re: Merge CMY into K
Post by: Joe on September 12, 2012, 05:44:45 PM
Quote from: DigitalCrapShoveler on September 12, 2012, 05:36:40 PMIt's got something to do with the text being a form. I haven't got it completely figured out yet.

Yeah, I noticed that. Running the Pitstop convert to grayscale action does nothing. If you close the PDF after running it it doesn't even asked you to save it so it's just completely ignoring Pitstop.
Title: Re: Merge CMY into K
Post by: DigitalCrapShoveler on September 12, 2012, 06:05:38 PM
After I run convert colors and preserve blacks in Acrobat, I can then use Pitstop and Select Similar Objects to get the rest. I'm trying to figure out why Pitstop is having a problem. The form is in a clipping mask, even when I cut it out, it still will not treat the form as an object that converts. There has to be something preventing it...
Title: Re: Merge CMY into K
Post by: DigitalCrapShoveler on September 12, 2012, 06:24:52 PM
Interesting enough, I CAN change it to a spot color through Pitstop.
Title: Re: Merge CMY into K
Post by: Joe on September 12, 2012, 07:29:46 PM
It's got something to do with transparency in the form. If you select the form and tell it to "Remove transparency from the selection" it is automatically just in the black channel. Don't even have to convert to gray after that.
Title: Re: Merge CMY into K
Post by: DigitalCrapShoveler on September 12, 2012, 07:47:35 PM
Really? I'll check it out. I didn't see any transparency on first look.
Title: Re: Merge CMY into K
Post by: DigitalCrapShoveler on September 12, 2012, 07:54:13 PM
I'll be goddamned, you're right. Worked like a charm.
Title: Re: Merge CMY into K
Post by: Joe on September 12, 2012, 08:29:31 PM
That is the weird thing. There is no transparency yet doing that works.
Title: Re: Merge CMY into K
Post by: DigitalCrapShoveler on September 12, 2012, 09:16:02 PM
THinking outside the box that shouldn't be there... good job, Joe. :huh:
Title: Re: Merge CMY into K
Post by: Greg_Firestone on September 13, 2012, 06:50:37 AM
Hi Dan,

Thanks for uploading. FixMyPrintFile fixed it correctly.

The table is a grouped object and is part of a transparency group. The blending colorspace of the transparency group is RGB.

Greg

Title: Re: Merge CMY into K
Post by: Joe on September 13, 2012, 08:32:24 AM
Probably a Word or Excel doc imported into Indy.
Title: Re: Merge CMY into K
Post by: PrepressN00b on October 25, 2012, 04:34:35 PM
Use the prepress module (If you have the PDF update). In there you can use the inks tab to remap colors to any separation.
Title: Re: Merge CMY into K
Post by: mattbeals on November 02, 2012, 12:11:16 AM
As Joe said it had to do with transparency. Specifically that the blend space was RGB. Once the transparency was removed or you use a fixup on that page to set the blend space to device gray you are good to go. But it was the blend space. All you need to do is to run an inventory report from the preflight module. It'll tell you almost everything you want to know.