5%-spot color not printable?

Started by Made in Taiwan, September 05, 2014, 01:42:32 AM

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Made in Taiwan

Hey guys!

I just ran into an issue with a business card. Yesterday a client came to our shop (we do digital printing) and ordered business cards. We have printed one box directly on our KM C7000 for him to take it right away since he was afraid he'll run out of business cards during the weekend and those cards came out just nice. He then ordered another five boxes for later next week, which we have outsourced to offset printing (one of those online printers that prints every file directly and unseen).

Now they just delivered the cards and I realized that the background picture on the back of the card, which is set up as a 5%-Pantone 289C, has not been printing. The original supplied PDF contains plenty of printer marks but no bleed and our printer would never accept a file like this, so I have placed it into InDesign and exported it as a PDF-X1. The file contains two spot colors, and one of those colors is causing this issue now. The 100%-areas of this color have been printed with no problem. I decided to leave the spot colors untouched and let them handle the color conversion since they are not able to print spot colors - all they know is CMYK.

The company said they'll print new business cards for us, so actually it's not a problem, but I'd like to know what might have caused this issue. Is my way wrong? Anything I should do better? I have pretty less experience with offset printing but the files I send them so far have all been printed with no issues.  But maybe you guys can give me some advice what to do better in the future. Here are my files:

Client supplied file: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4vV6_zsh9xXbUJoMDBTcERjSms/edit?usp=sharing
My file which went to the printer: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4vV6_zsh9xXbmMxN1Z1Mk80dDQ/edit?usp=sharing

Best regards and thanks to all of you in advance,

Christian
Working in Prepress is very difficult. God chose only the best to do this job.

StudioMonkey

Your digital presses will also be CMYK and they will be doing a conversion for the spot colours, just as the rip at the offset printers will.  289 is a dark blue so its not a problem with low dot density.  It sounds like the conversion your rip is doing is different from the conversion the offset shop's rip is doing.  If this is the case the the solution would be to convert all spots to cmyk before print - this is good practice anyway but sometimes it is not easy or straightforward.
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Farabomb

I'm a little jammed here but just wanted to say welcome.

Also say 4over or the like can give a fuck about quality so shit in, shit out.

When I get caught up here I'll check out the files.
Speed doesn't kill, rapidly becoming stationary is the problem

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My other job

DigitalCrapShoveler

CMYK or spot, doesn't matter. What you have here, sir is a shitty printer who doesn't calibrate. 5% is more than achievable, hence the reason they are going to redo them.

You did nothing wrong, except resave a PDF as 1.3 from 1.5.
Member #285 - Civilian

Joe

On the back side part of it is the 5% spot and some of it is 100% black with a 5% alpha fill (5% transparency means it is changing the 100% black to 5% black. Stupid way of changing a color though but I see designers doing it often). Anyway those two objects look the same on the screen but you might notice a difference on the printed piece. Or you might not.

But yeah, as DCS said, if the printer can't convert that file correctly is is time to find another printer.
Mac OS Sonoma 14.2.1 (c) | (retired)

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jimking

As DCS stated the printer most likely couldn't hold that dot. However, personally I would not have sent them a file with process and spot, knowing that they are not going to print those spot colors as "pantone spot colors". They are going to convert that file. Knowing that I would have sent them a file I converted leaving no doubt what caused what ever issue. If you would have converted that file to all process, and that 5% black is toast then you know either their press or plates or both could not hold that dot. In that case it wouldn't have been "garbage in garbage out", it would be "gold in garbage out."

DigitalCrapShoveler

Absolutely, I would have sent them my intention rather than "let them do it". The more work you throw on someone, the less it stays in your control. Crossing your fingers, and letting another fulfill your expectations is a lesson in futility.
Member #285 - Civilian

DigiCorn

Quote from: Joe on September 05, 2014, 08:18:48 AMOn the back side part of it is the 5% spot and some of it is 100% black with a 5% alpha fill (5% transparency means it is changing the 100% black to 5% black. Stupid way of changing a color though but I see designers doing it often). Anyway those two objects look the same on the screen but you might notice a difference on the printed piece. Or you might not.

But yeah, as DCS said, if the printer can't convert that file correctly is is time to find another printer.
I'm not seeing that. I only downloaded the "My Output File.pdf," and not the designer supplied file. I ran it to my Canon 6000 and it came out as what I see on screen.
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DigitalCrapShoveler

He farmed it out to another printer.
Member #285 - Civilian

Joe

Quote from: DigiCorn on September 05, 2014, 09:50:37 AM
Quote from: Joe on September 05, 2014, 08:18:48 AMOn the back side part of it is the 5% spot and some of it is 100% black with a 5% alpha fill (5% transparency means it is changing the 100% black to 5% black. Stupid way of changing a color though but I see designers doing it often). Anyway those two objects look the same on the screen but you might notice a difference on the printed piece. Or you might not.

But yeah, as DCS said, if the printer can't convert that file correctly is is time to find another printer.
I'm not seeing that. I only downloaded the "My Output File.pdf," and not the designer supplied file. I ran it to my Canon 6000 and it came out as what I see on screen.

It was the client supplied file.
Mac OS Sonoma 14.2.1 (c) | (retired)

The seven ages of man: spills, drills, thrills, bills, ills, pills and wills.

DigiCorn

Quote from: Joe on September 05, 2014, 10:18:46 AM
Quote from: DigiCorn on September 05, 2014, 09:50:37 AM
Quote from: Joe on September 05, 2014, 08:18:48 AMOn the back side part of it is the 5% spot and some of it is 100% black with a 5% alpha fill (5% transparency means it is changing the 100% black to 5% black. Stupid way of changing a color though but I see designers doing it often). Anyway those two objects look the same on the screen but you might notice a difference on the printed piece. Or you might not.

But yeah, as DCS said, if the printer can't convert that file correctly is is time to find another printer.
I'm not seeing that. I only downloaded the "My Output File.pdf," and not the designer supplied file. I ran it to my Canon 6000 and it came out as what I see on screen.

It was the client supplied file.
I assumed as much.
"There's been a lot of research recently on how hard it is to dislodge an impression once it's been implanted in someone's mind. (This is why political attack ads don't have to be true to be effective. The other side can point out their inaccuracies, but the voter's mind privileges the memory of the original accusation, which was juicier than any counterargument ever could be.)"
― Johnny Carson

"Selling my soul would be a lot easier if I could just find it."
– Nikki Sixx

"Always do sober what you said you'd do drunk. That will teach you to keep your mouth shut."
― Ernest Hemingway

Made in Taiwan

Thanks for your response guys! I actually started to doubt myself already. And yes, I also think this printing company sucks. But they are the cheapest around here and that's what it's all about. Nobody's willing to pay for quality, it just needs to be cheap and cheap only. Oh ya, and sometimes it needs to be fast, too.

The 5%-black words came out nice, just those two 5%-Pantone 289C circles and the lighthouse didn't appear. That's what made me feel weird. They are set to overprint but that should actually not let them disappear or am I wrong?

Fortunately, my client doesn't care a lot about color, as long as blue won't turn into purple he'd be OK. But he won't accept that things disappear. Next time I'll definitely take the advice to convert the color myself.

Thanks again everybody and have a great weekend!
Working in Prepress is very difficult. God chose only the best to do this job.

Possum

Some of the oursourced printers run digital, some run offset. Look up their websites. They usually have some section where they boast about their equipment.

I hear you on the weird way they made the 5% tint. I've got one client who is just enamored of transparency. By all means, don't make this 10% black, make it black with a 90% transparency. Lately I'm getting text to go on shirts that is not plain text or outlines, but is clipping paths. It's just text, just type it, for crying out loud, instead of making me figure out how to undo your stinking clipping garbage so I can designate the spot color for the separations.
Tall tree, short ropes, fix stupid.

Made in Taiwan

Sometimes you cannot think as stupid as people do... These days I am thinking about get myself enrolled at a graphic designer school and listen to what kind of crap they teach the students there - in that case I might be able to understand the way they prep their files.

Some news from my lovely printer:

Friday evening the delivery guy called (!? - why does the prepress guy not call himself? WTF...) and asked for an AI-file. During that time I had finished work already and my coworker did not really know about this case either, so she just replied that we don't have a AI-file, only the PDF. Ok, the driver said, he'll tell the prepress man and he'll find a way to go. I learned about this call today in the morning.

Yesterday was holiday here, so I was guessing, that we might get the business cards today, coz mostly, if you give them the file in the evening you'll get the product the next day during lunch time... Not so this time, the delivery guy came again with other stuff, but the business cards are still not in sight. He asked again for an AI-file, or in case we don't have, maybe we could just leave the background picture completely away. I just told him to tell his prepress person to call me directly... 

Two hours later (luckily my client has looooots of time) his majesty, the prepress man, finally called me. Kept telling me that for printing they'll use CMYK only, and if there are more colors than CMYK in the file, he couldn't handle it, since it won't open properly in Illustrator (!!). So after some discussion I've asked him, how about if I'd send him a pure CMYK file, would that make him stop crying? Yes, that would be OK. (So why do you not convert it to CMYK yourself for Christ's sake?) :shoots_self:

The new file just went there. As some of you have mentioned above already, it is really to do a color conversion by yourself directly. This is something I can definitely confirm now. You'll never know the skills of the person who receives your stuff. I really need to stop believing that other people might somehow know what they are doing...
Working in Prepress is very difficult. God chose only the best to do this job.

StudioMonkey

Quote from: Made in Taiwan on September 09, 2014, 01:57:58 AMI really need to stop believing that other people might somehow know what they are doing...

PrePress 101 right there
Time flies like an arrow - fruit flies like a banana