On larger books we creep half the book out and half the book in.

What we thought would work is figure the full amount of creep, divided in half and set this as the Initial Creep.

Enter the paper thickness into the Default Creep.

But it doesn't seem to be enough creep.

Anyone else doing this?

creep out and creep in? Never heard of doing this.
when you say larger books, how many pages you talking?
I assume this is a saddle stitch?
If so, then all the pages will push out by the thickness of the paper (of course multiplied by the number of sheets), which means you need to push all the pages in to maintain a consistent face margin.
How would creep out work?

Not sure if XMF works like preps but I've never heard of creeping anything out. It's always been creep in. We did a 114pg SS book and creep in w/scaling worked perfectly and made the center spread line drawing align perfect.

I think the reason you're not getting enough creep is you're negating the in with the out. Even if the beginning spreads of the book are creeped out it would draw anything close to the edge closer making any borders uneven.

We have a repeating job (and others) that are 128 pagers (or somewhere close to this), saddle-stitch. It needs enough creep that the inside pages get a little extra small.

With paper thickness at .007in the total creep comes to .217in. 

We divide this by 2 and put the .1085 into the Initial Creep. This forces the outside to start at a push-out distance of half the creep. The inside pagers show that they creep in .1085in, so it appears to work.

All of this seems logical, but in reality we didn't get enough creep.

Same here, we use preps and only ever use Creep-In.  Always make sure to check the "scale" box as well.  Otherwise you'll push content into the spine.

Yes. Other companies I have worked with have always creeped in. But this company really believes in the creep out / creep in method. 

So we trying to figure out how to make XMF do what we want. Had a Rep out here and thought we had it, but in practice it's not working well.

For those specs I get .224. We do big books with borders .125 off the trim and if we did the in/out thing none of the pages would be even and I don't think it would look good. I understand their theory but in my eyes that's not the way to do it.

Or you can just send it to my bindery house and even if you print it perfect their QC is so horrible it will end up looking like shit anyway.

If we get one that has that much creep (.25" or more), we scale the pages horizontally so it doesn't go into the spine.

Yeah, actually on all creep I end up clicking the scale button.

Creep works by using the full distance at the center pages and less as it moves outward. The center pages move the full distance while the outer pages don't move at all. I've seen places use the creep in/out method but I don't really get why. I think DCS did it that way. There are a few discussions around here on the subject.

It sounds like you only put half the creep in, did you try face only at the full amount?

You can select the pages you want to creep, I never do this but I know it can be done
just select the inner pages you want to creep and go thru the creep.
probably can try the outer this way too, just select the outer pages and see if it will let you
creep twice.

I'm going to try it now :laugh:

I think you may have to use manual creep you will have to do it 3 times as you can't select
the top and the bottom pages together.

do 2 layouts one in and 1 out? and plate accordingly?

I think I understand why you have to do it this way, not enough bleed for the creep.

I'm just learning pagination mode and that might be the way to go, not sure.

Creep can be applied to just the sections you need in XMF in pagination mode easily. In attachment "A" I have just selected the page sections and not the cover. Attached "B" you set the negative creep required for the sections you want. Then after you have selected all the pages in the Reading order (or just the ones you want to ) go to job page properties A[font='Segoe UI', 'Helvetica Neue', 'Liberation Sans', 'Nimbus Sans L', Arial, sans-serif]ttachment "C" and click override creep and select for face only. This is great when you have lineup as it will keep the spines aligned and creep.[/font]

[font='Segoe UI', 'Helvetica Neue', 'Liberation Sans', 'Nimbus Sans L', Arial, sans-serif]I have a fantastic Excel file that helps me out with stock/book and creep required that is made for XMF. I can sent it to anyone that wants it but keep in mind that it will be in Millimetres. But you can convert it.[/font]

By the looks Diddler is on a later version of XMF than us, but we've never looked back after doing 'Creep Face Only', as he says.

That's Fujifilm-speak for 'laterally shrink the pages by gradations as you head towards the middle of the book'. This is based on the premise that no punter will ever be able to tell it's happened. Your outer trim cuts will be bang-on, and you'll never have a page crossover problem.

But, as Diddler says, you have to select 'Creep Face Only'. Select the 4 cover pages and remove creep for those.

Very important to get your 'XMF Creep Value'. Obtained, if possible, by measuring a mock-up in that stock across the spine thickness.

Then get your page count, subtract 4 (cover), then divide by 4, (each sheet's worth of Creep).
You then divide your measured spine thickness by the above figure...
That's then your XMF Creep Value.

It gets entered as a NEGATIVE number in the Creep field.  XMF does the rest.

Screenshots from my (now a bit outdated, I think), end, if you want.

... here are the relevant 2, from my version. You have to check "Override Creep' before you can get 'Creep Face Only'. Counter-intuitive terminology, but...

What we're finding in our testing.

We have to double the paper thickness to get near the creep measured on a mockup. This is when we are creeping in only.

But it doesn't work perfectly.

We're finding if starting with a mockup it is closer if we divide by 2 (instead of 4).

Does this seem to be true for anyone else?