Explain something to me

[David]

I have Prinergy installed here (of course with Preps and Colorflow).
I have never had any formal training (from Kodak) on the ins and outs of the software. We were trained by "a very knowledgeable person" who has used it for several years (albeit an older version in a shop that is older than dirt as well).

I have been asked and I have asked around here (at work) and I have yet to get an answer that makes sense.

Why do you have to do 2 refines on a page? With Esko, you normalize once and you're good to go.
What is the difference between the 1st refine and the 2nd refine?
Do you have to do both?
If you don't why do they put it in there?

thanks in advance for any helpful nuggets.

[Ear]

Why dave, I had no idea you were so refined.

[Farabomb]

2 refines? I have EVO here (older version) and you refine once and use that refined file in preps to output to all your devices.

The only time I refine twice is if the customer wants a high res PDF proof so I just refine without trap.

[born2print]

Good question and the quick answer is you don't have to do the second refine.
BUT
It is best practice, and usually the templates are such that the first refine normalizes and makes the "SubPage(s)" and not much else, then the second refine does trapping, color management, etc... and in our case, a heavy dose of GCR!
So if we forget a second refine, we will lack those features.
So really, if 2 refines bug you, you are better off skipping the first and doing the second only.
HTH

[Farabomb]

Seems the newer versions of prinergy are nothing like the old EVO. I have no idea of what you guys are talking about.

[David]

Good question and the quick answer is you don't have to do the second refine.
BUT
It is best practice, and usually the templates are such that the first refine normalizes and makes the "SubPage(s)" and not much else, then the second refine does trapping, color management, etc... and in our case, a heavy dose of GCR!
So if we forget a second refine, we will lack those features.
So really, if 2 refines bug you, you are better off skipping the first and doing the second only.
HTH

If the 2nd refine does everything, why do they have two? Was it in the older versions that they really needed it and now it is different?
It's just that they are looking to me for answers that I have no idea about. Prinergy was thrown at us and we are expected to know it without "knowing" it.
so, professional opinion, can you not do the 1st refine and only do the 2nd and god will not smite you?

Typical prepress problem, "you got a computer, you know everything" kind of attitude.

[born2print]

I think it is reasonable to do only the second refine, and maybe do a first if a complex file fails, but my personal preference is that we all do both. It doesn't take long.
It may be an old thought, based on legacy, that isn't as important now. Hardware, RAM, the flavor of PDFS, Adobe RIP etc.. have changed since Prinergy 2 or 3 (we're in 6.1.2 now)

[Mikie]

The only time we refine more than once is if we need to remap a color, other than that I can't think of why you would be doing it twice. I've been on Prinergy for 10 years now and we have never done two refines. Even on complex files each stage of the refinement is a separate jtp, so I don't understand what splitting the refinement steps into separate refines does for you. Good chance I am just stupid though

[DCurry]

I agree with Mikie - 1 refine to do it all unless a special circumstance requires a secondary refine.

[Farabomb]

I'm still lost on the 2 refine thing. I've always set up the colors and PDF as it should be drop it on the server and use one of my process templates (4c, 4c w spot. 4c spot with die, ect) and it normalizes, traps and takes care of color in one step. I never knew prinergy had the option of a second refine as it's all done in the initial refine.

[Joe]

The only time we refine more than once is if we need to remap a color, other than that I can't think of why you would be doing it twice. I've been on Prinergy for 10 years now and we have never done two refines. Even on complex files each stage of the refinement is a separate jtp, so I don't understand what splitting the refinement steps into separate refines does for you. Good chance I am just stupid though

Ditto. Only one refine unless we want to remap spot colors. Rarely use a 2nd refine. If a customer sends a file with two spots that should be one you run the second refine to map one of the spot colors to the other spot color...and it updates the prinergy database to the correct colors. Or you can map it to process color as well.

I do use a bypass refine as a secondary as all that does is update the database. That is useful if for example you have a B&W page that has RGB that gets converted to CMYK on the first refine. Go to send it to plate and it wants to send all 4 plates. Which isn't a big deal as you can always only send the black plate for plate but if you open the refined file and convert everything to grayscale and run the bypass refine it will update the colors in the database from CMYK to K and then it only outputs the K when you release the job for plate. I'm a stickler to keep the database showing only the used colors. But there are multiple ways around all of these issues.

[Joe]

The "Spot Color Mapping" is not available in our 1st Refine templates...only in the 2nd refine templates.

[Farabomb]

Why not just remap it in the initial refine? That's what I've always done. Even if it's a job that doesn't use a color it just doesn't show up in the initial refined file.

Joe, that's interesting because I have the option to remap and convert to 4c on my refine.

[Joe]

Why not just remap it in the initial refine? That's what I've always done. Even if it's a job that doesn't use a color it just doesn't show up in the initial refined file.

Joe, that's interesting because I have the option to remap and convert to 4c on my refine.

Yes I have the option to remap spots to process in my initial refine and that is what we use 99% of the time. But if you want to remap a specific spot color to a different specific spot color or process color you need to able to click the "Color Mapping" button when you run the file. And that button isn't available on our first refine templates. Only the 2nd refine templates.

[Joe]

Here are screen shots of our 1st Refine template and our 2nd Refine template.

[attachimg=1 width=400]

[attachimg=2 width=400]

The "Color Mapping" button is only there when you refine the normalized PDF. It is not there if you try to use it on the original PDF. So if you want to do the "Color Mapping" function during a refine you have to do it on the 2nd Refine. It isn't an option on the 1st refine even if you try using the 2nd Refine template.