A newb and his profiles

[(Pre)PressingMyLuck]

Afternoon everyone. We haven't done any color management here, really. I've only been in prepress (digital) for 4 years, and so never learned any. But we have a large color critical client now that really wants this one purple to be this one purple whether it runs on one of the Indigos or the Ricoh toner machine (not getting into the press/copier debate! it's just a toner "machine"). It is a Pantone.

We have a i1Pro and the i1iO robot arm bit for it. i1Profiler 1.3 software that came with it in 2012ish and doesn't support spot readings, and the knowledge they never got it working back then so it just sat like roadkill. I got wind the bosses wanted to get Delta E readings on the presses to pantone swatches, and it being slow right now, I took it upon myself to figure out how to make this thing work because I'm curious, bored, apparently slightly masochistic, and don't mind stress drinking. Had to get an old copy of Color Port, but got it to calibrate and give me Lab values. Then calculated Delta E2000. All good. That is the preferred version of Delta E these days, right?

What I'm very much less clear on is how to use an ICC profile if I can get one generated. See...that i1Profiler software from 2012 that came with the device? Apparently it isn't licensed for profile generation for printers. Dunno if they will drop the dough to bring it up to speed, or if they even wanna go past getting Delta Es. So I dunno if I'll ever need the info, but I am curious. And want to have the answers already when they want to move forward.

So assuming I get one made, does that get embedded into the file, or setup in the RIP? Indigos have their HP DFEs and the Ricoh has an up to date Fiery. I know it has to be done per stock, per machine.

Thanks for any help!

[Possum]

I'm not much help, except to say that you're not alone. I never had experience with color management and stuff because I always worked in very small places. But just so you don't feel you're unwanted here, we've got something in common and they've let me stay a lot longer than they should.

[(Pre)PressingMyLuck]

Well thank ya. Pretty sure I'll fit right in. Been lurking for a while, and finally pulled the trigger and signed up. Dunno why I waited so long, honestly. Especially since I hear tell you guys have a bar

[Tracy]

just curious is your purple not printing correctly?

We are a small shop and we don't color manage, but in my experience whenever I need an exact color for digital,
I have to manually adjust the color.

If it's only the purple, you can play around with it to get your CMYK values, calibration every day for the Ricoh should be done.
The color may change every time you print that purple, but adjustments can be made at the copier at that point I guess?
In my experience Purple is easier than Dark Blues.
but color management would be awesome!

I'm sure someone will have an answer for you!

[David]

Delta E should be ΔE~1-3 range (perceptible with close observation)


trying to color manage a toner based device is an exercise in futility, every time you change out a toner cartridge, you got to start all over with your profiles.

Unless you have control in the pressroom (Gray balance, good densities, clean printing, etc), trying to color manage on your own will just make you frustrated.
You will spend a lot of time running profile patches, reading in, making profiles, adjusting, running more profiles...  rinse repeat

and, you have to do this for all your paper types and all your presses.

A whole back I worked at a color managed shop, it took a full year to get all our sheetfed and web presses dialed in, got G7 certified. We ran Prinergy with color flow and we were always dicking with the profiles and adjusting the profiles, using curves and a lot of just ole' style Kentucky windage.

Unless this is something you will be running on a consistent basis on consistent paper, I would just monkey with the color (adjust the colors in the source file) on each component (from press to press) to get them to match.

At my current place, we run an Indigo, Oce flatbeds, Mimaki printer, HP Inkjets (regular inks and UV inks), Oki printers (with white ink). If we have a job that runs on different printers, we will run  a good color "master", then manually adjust the files that run on the different printers to match as close as we can.


all it takes is time and money...   a lot of both

good luck and Welcome to the forums!

Cheers!

[(Pre)PressingMyLuck]

Yeah, I've had some "progress", or least some things aren't as murky. Had a scary amount of time to read this past week. Upstairs wanted dE readings, I was wanting to learn more about the color managed bit. They got their readings, and the rest will be a long slow learning experience as I can with what I've got. Bosses don't want to take it any further, which I'm honestly OK with.

I think the biggest problems we're having with this color is that everything for them was PDF Proofed. And we get the jobs as CMYK, but have their brand guide calling for Pantone, so the PMS became all we had to run to. I told bossman that we need an approved hardcopy and an understood dE standard of expectation. Amazingly, the two machines I tested were REALLY close. But both were a little more than dE2000 of about 3.25 from the PMS.

I'm gonna call it a win and pick up some brandy on the way home!
Thanks David!

[Joe]

@(Pre)PressingMyLuck - but I love your screen name! Welcome to the forum.

[(Pre)PressingMyLuck]

Thanks Joe!

[David]

hard proofing has gone away for the most part, due to the cost (to the customer and the rising cost of inks, toners and substrates).
Most customers wouldn't know a color managed proof from a newspaper.

Most if not all my jobs are pdf proofs send in emails to clients, only a few need a pdf proof as well as a press proof.




bird cage liners.....

keep repeating those words and you may retire from printing in a few thousand years with some of your brain intact.

  YMMV

[Tracy]

yeah if they are wanting you to match something you will definitely need a printed sample.

[(Pre)PressingMyLuck]

Brain intact? I was an electronics bench tech working on carrier and enterprise class equipment component level for 20 years before this, so no brain or sanity left, liver's hanging by a thread.

[David]

... so no brain or sanity left, liver's hanging by a thread.

welcome to the club, no liver here, brain is hangin' by a thread,  50 years in printing will do that to you

[Tracy]

Brain intact? I was an electronics bench tech working on carrier and enterprise class equipment component level for 20 years before this, so no brain or sanity left, liver's hanging by a thread.

were you on a carrier?

[(Pre)PressingMyLuck]

Nah, small shop that did repairs and sold new and refurbished equipment. When I started  there in the late 90's they also sold circuits like T1 lines for AT&T and others. Great residuals, but that went away not long after Y2K.

[Tracy]

  Y2K almost forgot about that