PDF workflows... Is there file integrity?

[Aaron]

Another Fuji rep. explanation of pdf workflows. There is no file integrity. True or false? They say a true pdf workflow never rips the file. Only "normalizes" it. Meaning every time you send that file to a device (proof, plate, digital press, etc.) the file has to be interpreted each time and can potentially interpret it incorrectly. Is this a problem with any of you guys using pdf workflows? They say the chance of there being an issue is about .1% but can happen. I am used to the Brisque. Rip once, plot many times.

I know the latest technology is moving to a pdf based workflow, just wondering how stable it really is.

And again, we are debating Rampage vs. Prinergy. I want Prinergy, but not sure if we have the $$ for it.

[almaink]

They R blowing smoke up yer arse. I run a full PDF RAMpage workflow here and I don't use NORM I use ROOM. The beauty of PDF is small files with everything included, and they are pretty easy to do small corrections on if needed. I rarely open native files anymore for simple typo's or even color correction once the PDF's are made. Another good thing is once you make up plate templates it's a simple matter to just relink new PDF's to the old layouts. Fuji reps or any company, for the most part just tell you what they think you want to hear to sell products.

[Ear]

"never rips the file"? Anything that ends up going to a plotter, printer, platesetter, etc... HAS to be ripped. An imagesetter needs to plot an image and therefore has to be rendered in a RIP.

I use a Xitron Extreme and I have the option to use either ROOM or NORM depending on the job and I can change the flow of any job on the fly. It is very fast, efficient and problem free. I process thousands of jobs per year and have only had a couple of strange things happen in the RIP over the past 5 years.

PDF workflow is the ONLY way to go IMO. Reps don't use the software and in my experience don't know jack squat about how they really work. They pick up a few buzzwords from watching an install and then spit them out in fits of word-vomit.

[born2print]

"never rips the file"? Anything that ends up going to a plotter, printer, platesetter, etc... HAS to be ripped. An imagesetter needs to plot an image and therefore has to be rendered in a RIP.

My hairy beast friend here is right. The file gets REFINED in Prinergy to PDF, then it RIPs at the devise (EFI RIP serving Epsons, Platesetter, Imagesetter, etc...) So, as opposed to Brisque which pipes HUGE ripped data files around, there is a small chance of a difference, but it's really more a theoretical chance than reality in my experience...
The risk is well worth the reward

[Aaron]

Gotcha. It's ripped at the device. that's what I meant. So each device will rip the file to output. Meaning it could rip it differently for each device. No? I think the rep was just trying to scare me. I don't see how all these pdf workflows would sell if there was no file integrity.

[David]

NORM here.

Like

"never rips the file"? Anything that ends up going to a plotter, printer, platesetter, etc... HAS to be ripped. 

We use an Esko Suite 7 front end here, and all the devices we have use an Esko FlexRip. Our files are Normalized and then sent to any device to be proofed or plated at which time it will be ripped for the first time. Any and all transparency is kept live until the RIP time.
I have 2 Kodak Approvals, both with FlexRips
I have an Evo box to my Trendsetter, it has a FlexRip on it.
I have 2 Lotem 800s, one with an Evo box, one with a Brisque, both have a Flexrip on them.
If there is any variation from the original file to the Ripped file, it is "fixed" with the addition of curves or Color Management.
So, you should not have any worries about using a NORM workflow, it's all good.

Bottom line, all devices will need to  RIP a file. (Illustrator and Photoshop both have built in RIPS)

[born2print]

In a nutshell, yes. We went from Brisque4 to Prinergy4 and none of us would go back. Our plates look like our proofs, PDFs are "portable" (especially Prinergy, Rampage, etc.. generated PDFs) and there's your integrity.

[mark_jetzer]

Another Fuji rep. explanation of pdf workflows. There is no file integrity. True or false? They say a true pdf workflow never rips the file. Only "normalizes" it. Meaning every time you send that file to a device (proof, plate, digital press, etc.) the file has to be interpreted each time and can potentially interpret it incorrectly. Is this a problem with any of you guys using pdf workflows? They say the chance of there being an issue is about .1% but can happen. I am used to the Brisque. Rip once, plot many times.

I know the latest technology is moving to a pdf based workflow, just wondering how stable it really is.

And again, we are debating Rampage vs. Prinergy. I want Prinergy, but not sure if we have the $$ for it.

The key to file integrity in a PDF workflow is the workflow.  We use Prinergy.  Prinergy RIPS all the output files, tiff, DCS, Contone Tiffs.  These are sent to the various devices Magnus, GMG, Epson, everything is RIPed by the same engine in Prinergy, so consistant results. 

You get into trouble if you use Prinergy for making 1-bit Tiffs to plate, Firey for our Epson proofer, Xbrand for your Imposed Proofs.  Each Rip, Rips differently. So, trouble happens.

On another note.  If PDF workflows weren't any good.  They won't be used.  Printers HATE liabilty.

[Joe]

Gotcha. It's ripped at the device. that's what I meant. So each device will rip the file to output. Meaning it could rip it differently for each device. No? I think the rep was just trying to scare me. I don't see how all these pdf workflows would sell if there was no file integrity.

Not really. In Nexus we RIP the files to screened one-bit tiffs and then Nexus copies the screened one-bit tiffs to each device (proofers and CTP) so the ripping is only happening once. For us anyway...

[ninjaPB_43]

there's another similar thread  here

[Aaron]

That's an intersting thread. So being a complete novice to PDF workflows, what is NORM and ROOM? And what's the difference? Is NORM what Prinergy uses and ROOM what other PDF workflows use?

[jimking]

Gotcha. It's ripped at the device. that's what I meant. So each device will rip the file to output. Meaning it could rip it differently for each device. No? I think the rep was just trying to scare me. I don't see how all these pdf workflows would sell if there was no file integrity.

Not really. In Nexus we RIP the files to screened one-bit tiffs and then Nexus copies the screened one-bit tiffs to each device (proofers and CTP) so the ripping is only happening once. For us anyway...

That's what we do. The same 1bit tiffs are used to print proofs, film, plates.

[David]

NORM = normalize once, rip many
ROOM = rip once, output many

[born2print]

NORM = normalize once, rip many
ROOM = rip once, output many

RENDER many

ROOM = Brisque
NORM = PDF workflows

[David]

I just like saying the word "rip"...


rip
rip rip
rip