would someone clear up once and for all the legal standpoint on the supply of fonts within a job?
from my point of view - as i've always known it - you are allowed to supply fonts for a "production" environment/output device. I am allowed to copy to use for the project and archive for future use (a repeat of the job) only - and NOT for use in anything else
I have a customer who refuses to supply fonts - saying its illegal. I've instructed them to ensure that all fonts are outlined.
Now here's the thing - if they DO NOT outline the fonts and create a pdf with the fonts embedded - then supply me that pdf - is that then breaking the law?
put me right or wrong - i'll take it.
The PDF with the fonts embedded is perfectly legal.
I think technically, to the letter of the law, down to brass tacks, no holds barred, that it is illegal for them to send you the fonts. I've never heard of the font police showing up to enforce it though. ;D
I thought beermonsters view was correct
Don't forget that some EULA's state that illegal to Outline their fonts, too. I'm
sure you and your clients have time to read up on your collections ;)
I guess it depends on the EULA of the font manufacturer. From Adobe's point of view:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/JoeCub/AdobefontEULA.jpg)
From that it sounds like the provider can only use the font if they have a license for it too.
Quote from: Joe on October 16, 2007, 10:25:30 AMFrom that it sounds like the provider can only use the font if they have a license for it too.
Correct. If your shop owns the font, you may download the client's copy solely for output purposes if needed to resolve version conflicts. If you don't own a font you can't put it on your equipment, servers, workstations, rips, whatever, period.
As I tell people who start screaming at me over this, I don't write the software licenses and I don't write the copyright and patent laws. If you don't like Adobe's position on stealing their software, buy enough Adobe stock to force a change in the rules at the next stockholders meeting. Just stand up and say "I think we should let people steal our stuff." If you don't like the copyright and patent laws, buy yourself enough Senators and Representatives and Supreme Court Justices and have the laws changed to your liking. This may take a while.
Meanwhile, as far as I know, when the Business Software Alliance audits companies, including printing companies, they have up until now left the font issue alone. Personally, I would advise owning at the very least a license to the current Adobe library. Here's why: when that rush job comes in and the client only included some of the fonts, or all the screen fonts but only half the printer fonts, or they've asked for a change from bold to black without giving you the black weight, you aren't stuck with having to harass the client to send you what you need.
and you get to just do your job in a professional manner.
Sheesh...no one said they wanted to pull an armed robbery on Adobe. ;D
Okay...you get the Adobe library license. So what do you do when you need a font by Linotype or some other font foundry? They've never forced the font issue because there is no way every printer can afford to buy the license to every font ever created.
thats been my point as well joe
our customer did once say we'd have to buy the fonts - i said ok - give me the money and i'll attempt to purchase the adobe, linotype. ITC - all of em - just so we're covered. Of course this was turned down.......
I only have this problem with publishing companies - no-one else at all - period.
so - i'll take a pdf for this theen - if thats legal - all bases covered.
thanks for the info folks
Quote from: beermonster on October 17, 2007, 03:46:30 AMso - i'll take a pdf for this then - if thats legal - all bases covered
I'm calling the cops...
where the hell is my phone...
anyone know the number for 911?
:ninja:
Quote from: david on October 17, 2007, 07:03:08 AManyone know the number for 911?
I can't find the eleven on my phone!
bloody splitters!
jeez the font ninjas are at the frigin door now arrrggghhhh!!!!!!!!
Quote from: beermonster on October 17, 2007, 07:14:55 AMbloody splitters!
jeez the font ninjas are at the frigin door now arrrggghhhh!!!!!!!!
:o Tie up the windows! Board up the hatches! Batten down the mizzen mast! Run for your lives! Bank holiday!
(http://usera.imagecave.com/b8tles64/webby_stuff/woohoo.gif)(http://usera.imagecave.com/b8tles64/webby_stuff/woohoo.gif)(http://usera.imagecave.com/b8tles64/webby_stuff/woohoo.gif)(http://usera.imagecave.com/b8tles64/webby_stuff/woohoo.gif)
Actually beermonster, I thought you described the rules of fair use with your first post (sort of).
You can use the customer fonts to do that one job, then you pitch 'em.
I think more often than not, IRL people will organize their customer fonts and use them only for that customer, assuming repeat business. Plus a lot of printers own the major libraries already and only have to worry about those weird fonts the customer decided to dress up their doc with.
well every time we work with publishers they will only supply a pdf - which is not always best for me at all. they simply refuse to send fonts ???
somehow it must contravene their licenses i guess. i argued we need the fonts to produce the job, and if they dont hold the correct licenses they themselves hold illegal fonts....this suggestion did not go down well however.....
It's my "understanding" that we all break the law, everyday, and that you are not allowed to "borrow" a font ever, for anything, no matter who or why. But obviously, the trade had a different idea because we all have done it for years, we even archive the borrowed fonts right?
so from your point of view we should ALL have EVERY single font EVER created. I dont believe thats correct.
A font is allowed to be supplied to "an output" device - be that a digital press, a poster printer, litho - whatever. It remains their property and is not allowed to be used in anything other than their job. Archiving is allowed only on the basis of repeat business. Any other use of that font breaches legal ownership and is illegal. It's not borrowing - its using an element within the project to produce an end product.
thats the way i know it to be anyway. ;D
Like wise
I guess my posted view is the "letter of the law",
and what we all do is "the spirit of the law"...
We're all font ninjas!
:ninja: :ninja: :ninja:
I know a lot of software engineers and high level programmers - some even still have jobs that haven't been sent to India - and the last thing you want to do is tell them you copy software (which includes fonts) without having the proper license. That mild mannered grey bearded geek, who used to follow the Grateful Dead from city to city, with thick glasses and a pocket protector full of pens, may look harmless, but that laser pointer isn't set to "stun."
Seriously, I'm well aware of what we have to do to get our work out. I've been dealing with this issue since the typeshop I was working in back around 1987 got a postscript film output device and I got my first disk to output for a client. They included the screen fonts with the job but not the printer fonts. Nothing changes.
When I got my first Mac at home, in 1990, an Apple engineer I'd known since high school dropped by to help me out with configuring it. I'd bought Pagemaker, Quark, and Freehand. The first thing Jon asked me was "do you understand that copying unlicensed software is theft and that professionals simply do not do it?" I assured him I understood this and he said, good, then I'll be happy to help you out. He explained a lot of stuff that has served me well over the years, like rebuilding the destop at least weekly and why running Apple's Disk First Aid before trying Norton was important. He also explained how fonts became corrupt, and why corrupt fonts were the main cause of crashed Macs. If you didn't have the original disk to re-load the font that had gone wonky, you were going to be in crash city forever. I've watched all of this, and more, unfold before me in shop after shop, year after year. And so on and so forth...
So repair those permissions. Empty that font cache. Up your FCBs! Do what you have to do to get the work out, but don't go around bragging about how easy it is to amass a huge mess of fonts. That one might burn you some day.
Quote from: hotmetal on October 24, 2007, 04:37:58 PMSo repair those permissions. Empty that font cache. Up your FCBs! Do what you have to do to get the work out, but don't go around bragging about how easy it is to amass a huge mess of fonts. That one might burn you some day.
LOL...If I had my way I'd only need one font.
i hear joe's a fan of brush script......well thats what pb 43 said.... :P
so - we're really undecided whether, as a legal license owner of a font, you can supply it to an output device/printer etc for the production of that product.
I'm really a fan of all fonts but prefer Courier for my design work! :(
Yes that sums it up. We can't agree on anything around here! :-\
yes we can :P
No we can't. ???
Quote from: Joe on October 25, 2007, 08:11:03 AMI'm really a fan of all fonts but prefer Courier for my design work! :(
I'm sure we can accommodate that. We just threw away all our fonts after reading this thread, whether we owned them or not, and Courier will be the only thing that prints anyway.
If your only font was Comic Sans, you would be sentenced to receive noogies from each prepress employee here at B4P.
(hmmm....B4P looks suspiciously like a strange smiley...Roy Orbison glasses, pointed nose, tongue sticking out. Was this done on purpose?)
Quote from: Gutnbg on October 25, 2007, 09:00:59 AM(hmmm....B4P looks suspiciously like a strange smiley...Roy Orbison glasses, pointed nose, tongue sticking out. Was this done on purpose?)
Nope. Just a bonus I guess.
Oh goody. I wondered if we were getting a bonus this year.
This one's better than last year's. :P
I have a HUGE collection of fonts, if anybody needs any. I'd be more than glad to break the law. ;D
joke :ninja: ster
:ninja:
would someone who has a need for some fonts please "hold" a backup copy of my fonts for me - off my site - so if I have a problem here I can always "get" them back......
:ninja:
A couple of us got into it a bit with one of the Adobe weenies, you've probably heard of him ;)
In response to Chris' post and others in this thread, a few thoughts:
(1) Font hinting is not something restricted to either screen display or for devices that support anti-aliasing. Hinting helps determine exactly which typographic features are critical to render under low magnification conditions. Low magnification conditions are not restricted to 72 dpi screens. The degree to which font hinting assists in rendering type effectively depends on (a) device resolution, (b) the "point size" of the text being rendered with the particular font, and (c) the style characteristics of the particular typeface. (a) and (b) are fairly obvious. In the case of (c), the issues have to do primarily with serifs, thin stems, small open areas within particular characters, etc. For example, at 1200dpi, you probably won't see that much benefit of hinting using Helvetica. On the other hand, with the same conditions, Adobe Garamond or Bodoni would show significant differences in rendering. Without hinting, the effect is typically over-"boldness" or blotchiness of rendered text. Considering that many digital presses run at 600 dpi, the effect is even more pronounced under those printing conditions.
(2) Converting text to outlines not only degrades the print and certainly the display quality, but for PDF workflows, it results in highly bloated file sizes, text that is no longer searchable in Acrobat or Reader, and text that can no longer be subject of text touch-up or edit tools, either of Acrobat or third-party plug-ins.
(3) Generally speaking, font vendors that license fonts that completely prohibit embedding in fact also prohibit such outlining of text or even rasterization of same to get around the embedding restrictions. You should read some of the EULAs accompanying fonts. Actually, you must read them if you are going to use a particular font in your designs.
(4) Whether you or I like the unreasonable restrictions put by various font vendors on their products is irrelevant. Those restrictions are there and are indeed enforceable via contract law, at least in the United States. Unreasonable or spastic or even we've done it this way for years, is not a defense under contract law. Unless you are a lawyer involved with intellectual property issues, I'd be very careful about offering opinions about what is not a violation of a contract. Fonts are not significantly different than other digital assets such as clip art, photographs, etc.
(5) As the marketplace for fonts matures, some font vendors will certainly be looking for areas to increase yield. One of those areas often targeted is licensing violations. As a printer, the last thing you want to do is tie up your time and financial resources fighting such a lawsuit over use of customers' fonts.
(6) Designers and print customers need to be educated as to what they can and can't do with digital assets. They must check the EULA (end user license agreement) restrictions before licensing fonts as opposed to bellyaching about the situation after the fact. They should remember that they are the customer and if they don't like the restrictions of a particular font vendor's EULA, they can indeed bargain for a modified EULA, unlocked (for embedding) font files, etc. just like they bargain for anything else in commerce. If enough designers, print customers, and printers just said "no" to font vendors with unreasonable font embedding restrictions and voted with their wallets, perhaps such font vendors might get the message as customers vaporized.
(7) With regards to any and all fonts licensed from Adobe, we certainly do allow printers to use the versions of such fonts supplied by the customer with the restriction that the printer must have their own licensed copy of that font. The easiest means of accomplishing such licensing from Adobe is with Adobe's Font Folio product. Compared to the cost of licensing individual fonts from Adobe and certainly compared to the various hardware and supply costs faced by printers, the cost of Font Folio is fairly reasonable.
(8) Note also that all fonts licensed from Adobe include preview and print embedding privileges for PostScript, EPS, and PDF. For PDF workflows with embedded fonts, if all you are doing is preflighting, previewing, proofing, and printing those PDF files, there is no need for any further licensing of fonts. If you want to edit source document files or touch up text in PDF files (not recommended in the general case), licensing of the fonts is required.
* Dov
So Read your EULA's :P
Quote from: Joe on October 16, 2007, 09:41:40 AM....I've never heard of the font police showing up to enforce it though. ;D
A couple of years ago the BSA decided to 'make a point' in Belgium. They showed up at a couple of printers front door at 8 in the morning, along with a legal team. There would be an audit in which invariably a number of fonts (and applications) where found that no one could prove ownership of. On the spot the team would make an offer to pay XXX euro to legalize the situation. If the owner refused, the workstations would be sealed. I've heard of one printer in Brussels who resisted for a day and a half. Once his presses started shutting down one by one, the fee was paid. Sales of font libraries soared in the months after!
I seem to recall a mass panic some years back about software vendors in silent black helicopters searching for printers using illegal software.
Quote from: Laurens on December 11, 2007, 01:18:04 PMQuote from: Joe on October 16, 2007, 09:41:40 AM....I've never heard of the font police showing up to enforce it though. ;D
A couple of years ago the BSA decided to 'make a point' in Belgium. They showed up at a couple of printers front door at 8 in the morning, along with a legal team. There would be an audit in which invariably a number of fonts (and applications) where found that no one could prove ownership of. On the spot the team would make an offer to pay XXX euro to legalize the situation. If the owner refused, the workstations would be sealed. I've heard of one printer in Brussels who resisted for a day and a half. Once his presses started shutting down one by one, the fee was paid. Sales of font libraries soared in the months after!
And now I've heard about it! ;D Scary...
Quote from: G_Town on December 11, 2007, 11:38:43 AM(7) With regards to any and all fonts licensed from Adobe, we certainly do allow printers to use the versions of such fonts supplied by the customer with the restriction that the printer must have their own licensed copy of that font. The easiest means of accomplishing such licensing from Adobe is with Adobe's Font Folio product. Compared to the cost of licensing individual fonts from Adobe and certainly compared to the various hardware and supply costs faced by printers, the cost of Font Folio is fairly reasonable.
Refreshing to hear this from another source on this forum. I have been ignored, insulted, shouted down, and threatened with firing (or worse), in response to trying to explain software licensing to co-workers and managers. The smartest thing I ever did for myself in this regard was buying the Bitstream library on an unlocked CD back in the early 1990s. That, and other type I've bought for my home design uses (Chank Diesel, whoohooo!) has served me well over the years. But I have yet to convince a single printing company to quit being stupid and buy the damn fonts. (Which is why I don't tell you where I work; I get to retire in 3 years and 10 months from this place, after which they're on their own.)
Quote from: G_Town on December 11, 2007, 01:34:28 PMI seem to recall a mass panic some years back about software vendors in silent black helicopters searching for printers using illegal software.
don't look now, but...
(http://gizmodo.com/assets/resources/2007/05/blackheli.jpg)
OK Dave, Texas is London? Am I right?
close enough for government work...
haha!
Quote from: david on December 12, 2007, 07:24:24 AMQuote from: G_Town on December 11, 2007, 01:34:28 PMI seem to recall a mass panic some years back about software vendors in silent black helicopters searching for printers using illegal software.
don't look now, but...
(http://gizmodo.com/assets/resources/2007/05/blackheli.jpg)
TAKE THAT!