We've suddenly had a problem re-occur which had disappeared for months....
We're getting very fine lines on our film (like maybe .1 pt) not ALL of the time but fairly frequently. The strange thing is, they occur only in the black area of the film. For example, the line will start at the edge of a halftone then end directly at the edge of type. It never runs through the image or graphic. We have been able to opaque or tape off most of them but sometimes it's impossible. When we reprocess the separation the line WILL NOT appear in the same place. It might be somewhere else or not there at all. The raster data is ok, it's not there in the preview. The lines run vertically (perpendicular) to the laser.
One tech guy who's been servicing avatras for many years has never seen the problem. He used to work for AGFA but now works for himself. We haven't approached AGFA as of yet. Another tech guy from the supplier we use thinks it may have something to do with a bus cable (?) from the RIP computer to the imagesetter. I myself am wondering if it's a network problem. We want to avoid replacing ciruit boards on the Avantra as we know this would be very expensive. It might not be worth it and upgrading to ctp might be a better choice.
Any help would be appreciated.
Ahhhh, I have not heard this problem in a LOOOOOOONNNNNNGGGG time. It can be several things, but commonly it is data loss, or interruptions in transit where the RIP drops data. Are you densities good? Is your DMAX dark enough? Your chemistry old? Your laser might be going out as well. Actually, that is probably it. Especially after thinking about the symtoms you describe. Check your laser intensity.
I can' believe an AGFA Tech has never seen this. It is used to be VERY common.
Edit: have you tried switching out cables? Another thought.
Quote from: DigitalCrapShoveler on August 07, 2008, 10:01:28 AMAhhhh, I have not heard this problem in a LOOOOOOONNNNNNGGGG time. It can be several things, but commonly it is data loss, or interruptions in transit where the RIP drops data. Are you densities good? Is your DMAX dark enough? Your chemistry old? Your laser might be going out as well. Actually, that is probably it. Especially after thinking about the symtoms you describe. Check your laser intensity.
I can' believe an AGFA Tech has never seen this. It is used to be VERY common.
Edit: have you tried switching out cables? Another thought.
Yes, thanks......Densities good, DMAX good, chemistry good, not sure about the laser intensity. And one person suggested we switch out the cables which I'm assuming means that big cable going from the rip to the imagesetter, which we have NOT done as of yet. Once I talked to him about it, the problem dissappeared and went away for months. Not once did it occur. The avantra is about 9 years old and has never had anything replaced, only service from time to time.
This MAY or MAY NOT be related to the Avantra problem, however......
Sometimes we get lines on our output to our KonicaMinolta digital printer as well. Black lines that are not in the file but print. When the job is reprinted at a later time they most times disappear. These lines are a little thicker and can occur just about anywhere. This machine has it's own CREO rip so it's bypassing APOGEE X.
Just wondering if they are related in any way.
Its a hellava machine! I always likes the Avantra Series. Yes, the BIG CABLE. Heres one you might not want to hear.... humidity. Humidity will also do what you describe. I think you need like 50% humidity in the air... does your Avantra have the built-in humidifier?
no, no humidfier, but I guess swapping the BIG CABLE would be the easiest thing to try first. I wouldn't be suprised that next week the problem goes away. That's what is so frustrating. Although it could get worse.
CHECK YOUR HUMIDITY!
Dumb question: How does one check one's humidity?
With a humidity gauge. There are devices out there, it has been awhile. I think the humidifier we currently use, has one built in. IT IS VERY IMPORTANT!
I used to run into this all the time with my Marlin (Konika) - cat fed imagesetter. It was not located in a very clean/dust free area so I was blaming that. I had luck by taking the cover off and going at the optics with a can of compressed air. Although I sometimes suspected it to be a manufacture flaw because one time when it was particularly bad, I swapped rolls and it went away. Damn I don't miss that problem.
Quote from: DigitalCrapShoveler on August 07, 2008, 11:09:47 AMWith a humidity gauge. There are devices out there, it has been awhile. I think the humidifier we currently use, has one built in. IT IS VERY IMPORTANT!
You know, humidity is important too, good point DCS. I used to have more problems in the summer than winter and that may have been why.
I'd shut it down, both the RIP and imagesetter and unplug the cable at both ends. Clean them both good so this is no dust or dirt on the ends of the cable or in the plugs on the RIP and imagesetter. Plug back in securely and try it again. Last time I had toi replace one of those cables it was about $3000.
Also, you mention networking. Is your RIP pulling these from a location on the network. Optimally you'd want the files residing on the RIP before imaging. I would never try to image from a network drive.
No Joe, the jobs are coming direct from a rip computer (it's only function) to the imagesetter.
What I meant about the network was that once we had whole blocks of pics, graphics and fonts going beserk and it turned out that there was too much traffic on the network which was bouncing data around. Everything here goes through a router but I would ASSUME that once the job gets to the host rip computer than it bypasses the router so that wouldn't be an issue. However, how the whole thing was wired up is beyond me. If the data is getting there okay and it's a direct connection to the Avantra then the network shouldn't be the problem. (I think). (maybe).
Quote from: pspdfppdfx on August 07, 2008, 11:52:52 AMNo Joe, the jobs are coming direct from a rip computer (it's only function) to the imagesetter.
What I meant about the network was that once we had whole blocks of pics, graphics and fonts going beserk and it turned out that there was too much traffic on the network which was bouncing data around. Everything here goes through a router but I would ASSUME that once the job gets to the host rip computer than it bypasses the router so that wouldn't be an issue. However, how the whole thing was wired up is beyond me. If the data is getting there okay and it's a direct connection to the Avantra then the network shouldn't be the problem. (I think). (maybe).
Okay, I agree. The network is out of the equation.
Quote from: Earendil on August 07, 2008, 11:13:26 AMI used to run into this all the time with my Marlin (Konika) - cat fed imagesetter. It was not located in a very clean/dust free area so I was blaming that. I had luck by taking the cover off and going at the optics with a can of compressed air. Although I sometimes suspected it to be a manufacture flaw because one time when it was particularly bad, I swapped rolls and it went away. Damn I don't miss that problem.
I think E is spot on, it could be dust on the optics, in particular, the rotating prism/mirror. I used to clean it myself every other month or so, a good Agfa tech had shown me how. It isn't too difficult, but it is something I haven't done in the last few years. GOOD LUCK!
Ok, thanks all...
I've included a pic here to better explain the strangeness of this problem.
Note that the line does not go into the picture or through the type.
(http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/8710/abcks7.jpg)
Are you sure they don't impinge on the half-tone and type, psp? Those sorta lines can gat "lost" in there sometimes. The Avantra's a capstan machine, correct? Looks like you've got a capstan travel "issue"; but that's a wild guess from a non-Avantra user. Plus I'm here late on a Friday night punching out a coupla jobs, and I'm up for any questions...just to stay awake! :laugh:
It's a serious guess though... :angel:
Damn, it really is late on Friday...I thought I was on P.1 :embarrassed: D'Oh! On the "wrong page". Missed all those D & M Avantra answers...Heck. I'll leave it here anyway. :cheesy:
Friday night? Wow, you must be far, far away from here! It's 8am friday morning. Hey, that's 8am,8/8/2008 for any chinese people out there take note!
Yes, we're absolutely sure that it's not going through any screens EVER. That's why most times we can tape or opaque the film. And these lines may only appear, for example, on 3 pieces of film out of 50.
I'm in Sinney, Orstraya, mate! And I'll take your word for it they don't go through the screen stuff.
We had that exact issue with our Avantras mate, but that has been over 10 years ago and neither me or my cronies can seem to remember if or how we resolved it - we suffer from CSR disease! I tend to think we never did and just lived with it, but if an answer works it's way up from the murky depths of my under used brain I will post.
well... so close and yet so far. Maybe a few beers will help you remember
PdfPdEPSCIA$%, you have an Avantra 44? Yes?
No DCS, it's a 30 inch. Probobly not much difference but the size.
Quote from: pspdfppdfx on August 08, 2008, 07:31:06 AMNo DCS, it's a 30 inch. Probobly not much difference but the size.
Are all the lines the same shape and intensity? Are they fuzzy or crisp? Are they all running the same direction, as in, if you rotate 90 degrees do the lines turn? Have you tried different film, and/or changed roll and recalibrated? Are the lines only showing in opaque areas?
I am asking because my AGFA tech usually comes in on Fridays... he has been around for awhile and is a pretty smart guy. He will know what to do. I will ask him as soon as he gets here. If he doesn't show up today, I will call him. Cool?
My manager seems to remember something about this... he said replace the cable. Yes, THE cable. I still want to confirm this with my AGFA tech.
The lines are always the same thickness (maybe .1pt or less), they ALWAYS run at 90 degrees to the laser movement, we've recalibrated, etc. etc.....the lines are ALWAYS in the opaque areas and the cable is about 8 years old.
That'd be great if the AGFA guy could help....
Quote from: pspdfppdfx on August 08, 2008, 08:54:24 AMThe lines are always the same thickness (maybe .1pt or less), they ALWAYS run at 90 degrees to the laser movement, we've recalibrated, etc. etc.....the lines are ALWAYS in the opaque areas and the cable is about 8 years old.
That'd be great if the AGFA guy could help....
I'm on it. Stand by....
We had the same issue on a ECRM, we were advise to change the scsi cable too.
Trouble is since the issue only happened every so often I can't be sure that it cured the fault. But at least it's a quick and cheap repair if it does work.
Hey DCS, any word? Don't mean to bug you, just wonderin is all.
Quote from: pspdfppdfx on August 11, 2008, 08:13:28 AMHey DCS, any word? Don't mean to bug you, just wonderin is all.
He never showed op Friday, and I don't work on Mondays... but, I did leave a message on his voice mail late Friday. I asked him to give me a call tomorrow. I will probably know something then. We'll get you figured out man! :wink:
Awesome! I'd like to honor you by naming my next dog after you. But I just can't get my head around saying "Come here Digital Crap Shoveler, come here. Or good boy Digital Crap Shoveler, good boy. Don't worry, I'll think of something though..........
Digi-widgy crappy-wappy shovel-pooh?
Ummm, you could name him Jason? :huh:
I'll run that by the wife when "BOOMER" expires.....
Don't know if I'm late (lost my password) but her is my 2 1/2 cents.
We had that kind of streaks. They go along the path of the laser, they are white on a negative film this means that the laser is skipping one or more revolutions.
Check that the film is not scratcked, it may be crystalisations of chemistry scratching the emulsion, crystals can form at different places so the scratch may move.
One more thing on the physical side is if your roller coggs are worn causing the flim to move jerkily and that may cause the streaks to come and go.
Possible electronic sources are as said above the cable,
but there are other possible factors. A temporary drop in power (do you have a power stabiliser).
Or had problems with a hard disk on our printdrive causing dropouts.
Okay PDFPSTWAFTPXYZ, I talked to my AGFA tech. I explained your situation and the problems you are having. Here are his suggestions, (I am paraphrasing):
The line problem can be a lot of different things. Most have been touched on in this thread... Humidity, cleanliness, maintenance. If the optics in the machine, or any of the moving parts are hampered, you could/would display symptoms like described. It is imperative that the machine is serviced, and/or at least thoroughly cleaned. Take compressed air, and a vacuum cleaner and really clean it. Make sure all moving parts are not causing friction and/or weird noises. Lubricate if necessary. Clean all the filters, and especially any area that comes in contact with film, make sure there are NO obstructions.
Another thing he suggested, is making sure the machine transferring data to the Avantra is on the cuff. He explained about how for instance PrintDrive could be sending data, dropping connections, then reestablishing the connections and transferring, but the data that was dropped is not resent. This would NOT be an Avantra issue, so maybe you might want to rule that out before cleaning, even though HE highly recommended it.
The last thing he suggested, is to replace THE cable. Only as a last resort, after all else fails.
He gave me his direct number, so anything you need... let me know. I hope this helps.
Thanks for the effort DCS, i appreciate this. I'm going to print this out and show it to my boss. I'll keep you posted but the funny thing is the problem has not occured for the past week. But at least we have an attack plan to try to make sure it doesn't happen again. Thanks.
Let me know how it goes. :wink: