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Press & Post Press => Digital Printing => Topic started by: pspdfppdfxhd on May 10, 2017, 07:40:44 AM

Title: sending pdfs to Konica 1070
Post by: pspdfppdfxhd on May 10, 2017, 07:40:44 AM
When sending pdfs to our new Konica (which works great by the way for the operator) we're experiencing problems sending pdfs through the hot folder.

On our old Konica, with a proper rip (creo) we did not have this problem. It centered every pdf regardless if it had marks or not. The new Konica does not have a proper rip as it was deemed too expensive.

For instance, if i send an 8.5 x 11 pdf with crop marks to it, it will not center the pdf on the page properly, ie. not backup right. It's treating the pdf as 11.75 x 9.375 or whatever the original with marks was. Even when I crop the pdf down to 8.5 x 11 with Acrobat or Quite Imposing. So... it has to be imported into Indesign and exported with no marks, bleeds etc. what a pain in the butt.

I am pretty sure it has something to do with page boxes, trim boxes, etc. If there was a setting to this on the Konica to center PDFs would be the best solution.

Any help appreciated.
Title: Re: sending pdfs to Konica 1070
Post by: Farabomb on May 10, 2017, 08:42:31 AM
Quote from: pspdfppdfxhd link=msg=290667 date=1494416444

When sending pdfs to our new Konica (which works great by the way for the operator) we're experiencing problems sending pdfs through the hot folder.

On our old Konica, with a proper rip (creo) we did not have this problem. It centered every pdf regardless if it had marks or not. The new Konica does not have a proper rip as it was deemed too expensive.

For instance, if i send an 8.5 x 11 pdf with crop marks to it, it will not center the pdf on the page properly, ie. not backup right. It's treating the pdf as 11.75 x 9.375 or whatever the original with marks was. Even when I crop the pdf down to 8.5 x 11 with Acrobat or Quite Imposing. So... it has to be imported into Indesign and exported with no marks, bleeds etc. what a pain in the butt.

I am pretty sure it has something to do with page boxes, trim boxes, etc. If there was a setting to this on the Konica to center PDFs would be the best solution.

Any help appreciated.


I've highlighted your problem. Never cut corners on a production machine, it WILL cost you more in the end. There is likely a real impo system in the real RIP but the bean counters didn't think it important. I'll ask my copier repair friend and see if he knows anything.
Title: Re: sending pdfs to Konica 1070
Post by: Joe on May 10, 2017, 08:44:29 AM
Can't help you with Konica but yes it is using the media box. Proven by the fact when you make a new PDF from Indesign and output it at either bleed or trim size which also makes the media size it centers correctly. What application creates the originals? Easy fix barring a setting on the Konica is to edit the page boxes with Pitstop. It is pretty easy to create an action to change media and crop boxes to the size off bleed/trim. You might even be able to create a preflight profile to do it using variables so it prompts you as it runs to enter the size width and height you need the page boxes to be. That way you can create one profile to use for any size.
Title: Re: sending pdfs to Konica 1070
Post by: Joe on May 10, 2017, 08:47:33 AM
Quote from: Farabomb date=1494420151 link=msg=290671

I've highlighted your problem. Never cut corners on a production machine, it WILL cost you more in the end. There is likely a real impo system in the real RIP but the bean counters didn't think it important. I'll ask my copier repair friend and see if he knows anything.


Agreed. On our latest color copier we got a Fiery RIP. You can get the RIP with APPE added for an additional $25,000. Guess which one we got?
Title: Re: sending pdfs to Konica 1070
Post by: Farabomb on May 10, 2017, 08:49:21 AM
Probably the same ones that my friend has a basement full of. Starts with F and ends with why the fuck didn't we get the real RIP?
Title: Re: sending pdfs to Konica 1070
Post by: Tracy on May 10, 2017, 10:09:32 AM
can you print to the Konica rather than drop into the hot folder?
I can drag pdfs into our CW and it does use the Media box size
I only do this if my Media size is correct, I print to the Konica if it isn't.
I don't think we have the centering problem tho, I just like to have it showing
the correct sheet size
Title: Re: sending pdfs to Konica 1070
Post by: pspdfppdfxhd on May 10, 2017, 11:09:02 AM
I have always been confused about the different boxes, crop, media etc.

I'll have to study this more when time allows.

Title: Re: sending pdfs to Konica 1070
Post by: Joe on May 10, 2017, 11:20:27 AM
The PDF page boxes: MediaBox, CropBox, BleedBox, TrimBox & ArtBox (https://www.prepressure.com/pdf/basics/page-boxes)
Title: Re: sending pdfs to Konica 1070
Post by: Farabomb on May 10, 2017, 11:23:18 AM
I have 2 files coming about setting up the folders. What RIP? Fiery?
Title: Re: sending pdfs to Konica 1070
Post by: pspdfppdfxhd on May 10, 2017, 11:50:06 AM
Quote from: Joe date=1494429627 link=msg=290687

The PDF page boxes: MediaBox, CropBox, BleedBox, TrimBox & ArtBox (https://www.prepressure.com/pdf/basics/page-boxes)


Thanks Joe, that's useful.

Muddled around in pitstop a bit but can't see a way to define media box to the same size as the trim box. Guess that would just be too easy.
Title: Re: sending pdfs to Konica 1070
Post by: Possum on May 10, 2017, 11:59:03 AM
Also too easy is that later versions of Acrobat allow you to crop your file to size, but it keeps the cropped information, which other apps can read, thereby defeating the purpose. Earlier versions didn't do that. So much for new and improved.
Title: Re: sending pdfs to Konica 1070
Post by: Joe on May 10, 2017, 01:45:58 PM
Quote from: Possum date=1494431943 link=msg=290692

Also too easy is that later versions of Acrobat allow you to crop your file to size, but it keeps the cropped information, which other apps can read, thereby defeating the purpose. Earlier versions didn't do that. So much for new and improved.


Yes. Non-destructive crop. So you can recover if you crop it wrong. Just changes the crop box but not the media box so RIP's that are set to render the media box still get the cropped info.
Title: Re: sending pdfs to Konica 1070
Post by: Joe on May 10, 2017, 01:53:13 PM
Quote from: pspdfppdfxhd date=1494431406 link=msg=290691

Quote from: Joe date=1494429627 link=msg=290687

The PDF page boxes: MediaBox, CropBox, BleedBox, TrimBox & ArtBox (https://www.prepressure.com/pdf/basics/page-boxes)


Thanks Joe, that's useful.

Muddled around in pitstop a bit but can't see a way to define media box to the same size as the trim box. Guess that would just be too easy.


Open inspector. Open the Acrobat tools (assuming you have already added the Pitstop tools to the Acrobat tools). Click the 'Pitstop Page Boxes' icon. Then in the menu at the top click the 'Show Page Boxes' icon. Then click the 'Edit Page Boxes'. If you have a multipage PDF you can set the first one and then in inspector under the 'Action' menu click the 'Apply these Page Boxes to All Pages' link. See attached images.
Title: Re: sending pdfs to Konica 1070
Post by: Joe on May 10, 2017, 01:57:13 PM
If you want to change the page boxes via an action create a new action and then search 'Media box', 'Crop box', 'Bleed box', and 'Trim box'. Good luck figuring out what the options do though. At least I can't make a whole lot of sense out of them. They do not do what I think they should do. But I can usually fumble my way through it.
Title: Re: sending pdfs to Konica 1070
Post by: Joe on May 10, 2017, 02:08:56 PM
Quote from: pspdfppdfxhd date=1494431406 link=msg=290691

Quote from: Joe date=1494429627 link=msg=290687

The PDF page boxes: MediaBox, CropBox, BleedBox, TrimBox & ArtBox (https://www.prepressure.com/pdf/basics/page-boxes)


Thanks Joe, that's useful.

Muddled around in pitstop a bit but can't see a way to define media box to the same size as the trim box. Guess that would just be too easy.


First I am assuming your page has no bleed and you want the media box the same as the trim box sooooo....

Okay following my post above about using inspector lets say your trim is 210 mm x 297 mm and your media box is say 250mm x 350 mm and your bleed is defined as 3.2 mm. To change your media box you would have to enter -3.2 in both the x and y box (this number would be same number that is in the x and y box for whichever page box you are trying to re-size the media box to except it should be a negative value )(they will revert to 0 once you exit the x and y page box but don't worry...the setting took) and then enter you trim (or bleed) width and height of 210 mm x 297 mm (the same value of either the trim or bleed box you are trying to match). Your media box will now be the size of trim (or bleed) box. Then select the crop box and uncheck the box to disable the crop box. Then click it again to enable it and it will change to the size of the media box. Do the same for the bleed box. Then set your x and y value for the tim box to 0 and leave the height and width the same as they were originally. Your page boxes should all now be the same...at the trim size of the original PDF.
Title: Re: sending pdfs to Konica 1070
Post by: Joe on May 10, 2017, 02:17:09 PM
If your page does have bleed size the media box to the bleed box instead of the trim box.
Title: Re: sending pdfs to Konica 1070
Post by: Farabomb on May 10, 2017, 03:06:52 PM
Quote from: Joe date=1494439033 link=msg=290696

If you want to change the page boxes via an action create a new action and then search 'Media box', 'Crop box', 'Bleed box', and 'Trim box'. Good luck figuring out what the options do though. At least I can't make a whole lot of sense out of them. They do not do what I think they should do. But I can usually fumble my way through it.

This will work but yes, it's a bit confusing. I output imposed PDFs from prinergy for some digital jobs and the boxes end up all wonky and it was driving the digital guy nuts. I created an action to make all the boxes the media size in order to fix it. Not sure it will help in his case but I can share it if might.

pdqhashpotbeerfxhd, are you running a Fiery RIP on the Konica? My friend is supposed to be sending me the instructions for creating hot folders in case something was missed on your install. If it is a Fiery I may need a scan of the printed config page so he can see what bug fixes have been installed.
Title: Re: sending pdfs to Konica 1070
Post by: pspdfppdfxhd on May 10, 2017, 03:19:14 PM
Wow Joe, getting a headache from all this info!  :vomit: But thanks for the effort!

I found a way to change the Konica to recognize the "crop box" as the page size (not the trim box as I would have hoped) so if I use pitstop to change the crop box to the size of the trim box then it works ok.

:drunk3:
Title: Re: sending pdfs to Konica 1070
Post by: pspdfppdfxhd on May 10, 2017, 04:57:45 PM
Quote from: Farabomb date=1494443212 link=msg=290704

Quote from: Joe date=1494439033 link=msg=290696

If you want to change the page boxes via an action create a new action and then search 'Media box', 'Crop box', 'Bleed box', and 'Trim box'. Good luck figuring out what the options do though. At least I can't make a whole lot of sense out of them. They do not do what I think they should do. But I can usually fumble my way through it.

This will work but yes, it's a bit confusing. I output imposed PDFs from prinergy for some digital jobs and the boxes end up all wonky and it was driving the digital guy nuts. I created an action to make all the boxes the media size in order to fix it. Not sure it will help in his case but I can share it if might.

pdqhashpotbeerfxhd, are you running a Fiery RIP on the Konica? My friend is supposed to be sending me the instructions for creating hot folders in case something was missed on your install. If it is a Fiery I may need a scan of the printed config page so he can see what bug fixes have been installed.


No rip, just the bare bones controller that does not give a damn about trim and bleed boxes.
Title: Re: sending pdfs to Konica 1070
Post by: Joe on May 10, 2017, 05:37:32 PM
Here is an action list that will change the crop box to the trim box. Just unzip and import the .eal into your action list panel. It was made with Pitstop 2017 so it may warn you about that when you import it but I think it should work OK.
Title: Re: sending pdfs to Konica 1070
Post by: pspdfppdfxhd on May 11, 2017, 09:48:39 AM
Quote from: Joe date=1494452252 link=msg=290719

Here is an action list that will change the crop box to the trim box. Just unzip and import the .eal into your action list panel. It was made with Pitstop 2017 so it may warn you about that when you import it but I think it should work OK.


Thanks, but changing the crop box to the trim box takes out the bleeds, this method will work only for pdfs with marks and no bleeds.

So we'll have to deal with it upstream before the file gets to the printer.

Funny, been doing this job for about 17 years and finally understand the "box" concept in pdfs. Guess this is the first time I really HAD to figure it out.

3 cheers for Joe again!

Cheers! :drunk3: Cheers! :drunk3: Cheers! :drunk3:


Title: Re: sending pdfs to Konica 1070
Post by: pspdfppdfxhd on May 11, 2017, 09:57:35 AM
I told them to get the rip damnit. :git off mah lawn:
Title: Re: sending pdfs to Konica 1070
Post by: Joe on May 11, 2017, 10:05:45 AM
That is why I said earlier you need to crop to the bleed box if your page has bleed.

Attached are two actions. One changes media and crop box to trim box. One changes media and crop box to bleed box.
Title: Re: sending pdfs to Konica 1070
Post by: pspdfppdfxhd on May 11, 2017, 10:31:57 AM
But then we're still going to lose the crop marks, unless the printer can put them on....I think it can but it might end up putting them on the bleed box, not the trim box.

I'll try these actions and do some experimentation....

If nothing else this has been a good learning experience.
Title: Re: sending pdfs to Konica 1070
Post by: Joe on May 11, 2017, 11:15:16 AM
Well if you want the crop marks why don't you just use the setting in the Konica for the crop box? I guess I'm not understanding this totally...how are you imposing?
Title: Re: sending pdfs to Konica 1070
Post by: pspdfppdfxhd on May 12, 2017, 11:23:51 AM
No time to think about this now, being sucked into the vortex of crazy busy.

We'll just have to wing it as usual.