Recent

Author Topic: Starting off...  (Read 36157 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline DigitalCrapShoveler

  • Mighty Joe's Son
  • Supreme Ninja
  • ***
  • Posts: 23057
  • Gender: Male
  • Let me know if you're a size 14.
Starting off...
« on: March 05, 2008, 11:15:11 PM »
Okay, I have been reading a lot on this forum over the last month, and it sounds pretty sure that our careers could be in jeopardy if we don't start adapting to other offshoots of our proud profession.

I have seen many good and capable oldtime strippers and craftsman lose their jobs because they didn't want anything to do with computers. I don't want to end up like these guys.

It seems to me, again through reading threads on this forum and the newspaper, that many of you are to me correct in the assumption that if you don't get into web-based apps, you might find yourself the first on the chopping block, and then find it difficult to find another job after that.

My question to all you dual print/web guys... I know many of you are very capable Prepress Guys/Gals, that is why I trust your judgment as kin in vocation. If a guy were to get into web-based apps, what would be the best way to start, and what apps are going to be worth it to learn? I know enough to be familiar, but not enough to be confident in asking a designer for advice. What should I steer clear of?
Bates  •  Vorhees  •  Meyers  •  Krueger  •  Hobbs  •  Lecter  •  Dollarhyde  •  Bateman  •  Gumb  •  Doe  •  Morgan •  Todd •  Kevin •  DCS •  Kasem

"Does it really matter? There's shit in the meat and we're all pink inside. Live a little..." The Gnub

"I look forward to the sweet release of death..." Dave, on behalf of all Prepress

Member #285 • OG PH8 • Award-Winning • Population Control Enthusiast • Master of Freehand Jobs • Hater of All • Prodigy of Addition & Subtraction

Offline Joe

  • Master of Nothing
  • Administrator
  • Ninja Warlord
  • *****
  • Posts: 38684
  • Gender: Male
    • B4Print.com
  • Gender: male
Re: Starting off...
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2008, 12:25:52 AM »
It depends on what you want to do. Most design places are looking for people that can use the typical prepress applications like Quark, InDesign, Photoshop, and Illustrator to do ads for print but they also want people who can do the ads for the web using an application Adobe Flash.

If you want to learn web site design and develop full blown web sites you would probably want to start with something like Adobe Dreamweaver. The Adobe apps are, as I'm sure you are aware, not cheap. There are a lot of other applications that are open source that you can download for free like WordPress, Mambo, Joomla, Ruby on Rails, Drupal and many others. You'll need to be able to deal with SQL databases, web server software like Apache and IIS and learn some form of PHP, Perl, Ruby, CSS, and/or HTML.

Personally, I'm not much of an ad designer so I'm trying to teach myself the backend stuff. I've got an old PC I wasn't using and I've installed Ubuntu Server on it and have set up an Apache web server with mySQL and PHP. I can test any of the opensource software out on it without having to worry about screwing something up. It's pretty handy. If I do screw something up it isn't a big deal to wipe it out and start over.
Mac OS 11.5.2 Big Sur | Prinergy 9.0.1.125 | Adobe Creative Cloud 2021 | TWO Fuji CTP Units

I'm Sorry I Hurt Your Feelings When I Said You Were Stupid. I Honestly Thought You Already Knew

Offline ninjaPB_43

  • Head Ninja In Corporate America (Tha HNICA)
  • Ninja Master
  • **
  • Posts: 6796
  • Irie Minded
Re: Starting off...
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2008, 11:29:15 AM »

I've got an old PC I wasn't using and I've installed Ubuntu Server on it and have set up an Apache web server with mySQL and PHP. I can test any of the opensource software out on it without having to worry about screwing something up. It's pretty handy. If I do screw something up it isn't a big deal to wipe it out and start over.


did the same at my house, and quickly realized I was in way over my head(with the Ubuntu Server), but Im learning more and more every day. 

I think the programs mentioned by Joe are pretty much the standard.

A few of the "designer" packages of CS3 come with DW and FL..   there's ALOT to the web..   but to answer your question, I can only imagine having knowledge of both print and web to be advantageous..  just careful of the eggs all in one basket thing.
People will notice the change in your attitude towards them, but won't notice their behavior that made you change.  -Bob Marley

Offline DigitalCrapShoveler

  • Mighty Joe's Son
  • Supreme Ninja
  • ***
  • Posts: 23057
  • Gender: Male
  • Let me know if you're a size 14.
Re: Starting off...
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2008, 11:40:10 AM »
Fortunately, I have most of the software you guys recommend. Some of the Open Source stuff I can get from the net, or my IT friend. I want to be well rounded, but I don't want to squeeze too much at first. I suppose I should start with one, and as I start figuring things out switch to another. Okay, just for giggles, should I start with DW or FL? I am interested in Flash, because I am huge animation fan, however I also want to learn in the right order.

Now Joe, you talk of learning program language, HTML, etc... are they all about the same with minor differences, or are they completely different?
Bates  •  Vorhees  •  Meyers  •  Krueger  •  Hobbs  •  Lecter  •  Dollarhyde  •  Bateman  •  Gumb  •  Doe  •  Morgan •  Todd •  Kevin •  DCS •  Kasem

"Does it really matter? There's shit in the meat and we're all pink inside. Live a little..." The Gnub

"I look forward to the sweet release of death..." Dave, on behalf of all Prepress

Member #285 • OG PH8 • Award-Winning • Population Control Enthusiast • Master of Freehand Jobs • Hater of All • Prodigy of Addition & Subtraction

Offline gnubler

  • Ninja Warlord
  • ***
  • Posts: 28334
  • Gender: Male
  • Amerkin
Re: Starting off...
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2008, 12:29:47 PM »
I did just what you're talking about, except I started about four years ago. I figured there is no harm in expanding my skill set to also include web design & development. Let me just say that it's a huge learning curve, I still struggle with it every effin' day - but there are infinite resources online to help you.

#1 is to learn XHTML and CSS - those are the foundations of any webpage. From there you can branch out into specialty areas - for example, I've become quite fond of CMS-type of websites like WordPress and Joomla which allow almost any monkey (meaning your client) to update the site without knowledge of coding.

Dreamweaver is nice for the color coding and closing tags - that's about all I use it for. Be careful, it can create some real crap if you don't know what you're doing. Do not lay out pages with tables - it's the equivalent of using Excel to create a brochure. Bad.

If you're into animation graphics, jump into Flash. I avoid it like the plague myself, but it does have its uses.

There are so many resources online, I'll just drop the bomb once with the Web Developer's Field Guide.

Have fun.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2008, 12:42:54 PM by gnubler »
Hicks • Cross • Carlin • Kinison • Parker • Stone •  Colbert • Hedberg • Stanhope • Burr

"As much as I'd like your guns I prefer your buns." - The G

So,  :drunk3: i send the job to the rip with live transparecy (v 1.7 or whatever) and it craps out with a memory error.

Member #14 • Size 5 • PH8 Unit 7 • Paranoid Misanthropic Doomsayer • Printing & Drinking Since 1998 • doomed ©2011 david

Offline DigitalCrapShoveler

  • Mighty Joe's Son
  • Supreme Ninja
  • ***
  • Posts: 23057
  • Gender: Male
  • Let me know if you're a size 14.
Re: Starting off...
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2008, 12:35:34 PM »
Thanks Gnub, Joe and Ninja... Very inciteful. I hope you all don't mind if I hit you up on some questions after I get into it. I may not need to, I pick up on stuff pretty quick, but there might be a few.
Bates  •  Vorhees  •  Meyers  •  Krueger  •  Hobbs  •  Lecter  •  Dollarhyde  •  Bateman  •  Gumb  •  Doe  •  Morgan •  Todd •  Kevin •  DCS •  Kasem

"Does it really matter? There's shit in the meat and we're all pink inside. Live a little..." The Gnub

"I look forward to the sweet release of death..." Dave, on behalf of all Prepress

Member #285 • OG PH8 • Award-Winning • Population Control Enthusiast • Master of Freehand Jobs • Hater of All • Prodigy of Addition & Subtraction

Offline Joe

  • Master of Nothing
  • Administrator
  • Ninja Warlord
  • *****
  • Posts: 38684
  • Gender: Male
    • B4Print.com
  • Gender: male
Re: Starting off...
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2008, 12:47:23 PM »
Flash is mainly GUI design until you are ready to add the animation. Then you will need to learn ActionScript 3.0 which is a programming language. The syntax is different among different programming languages. Just remember that Flash is used to make objects up that go on the web pages while DreamWeaver can create the whole page (or whole site).

HTML is not a big thing in that the higher end sites mainly use php and css and then the HTML is created dynamically at runtime. If you want to learn web site development I'd start with DreamWeaver. Adobes help system is extensive compared to some of the open source stuff. You can create entire web sites with it using any or all of HTML, CSS, Javascript, ActionScript, XML and you can use programming based upon ASP Javascript, ASP VBScript, ASP.NET C#, ASP.NET VB, ColdFusion, JSP, PHP. Just remember the ASP stuff and I think ColdFusion has to be on a Windows server. It also might need to be running on a IIS web server but I'm not sure on that. I prefer (and recommend) PHP to start with. You can use it whether you have a Linux, Mac, or Windows web server.

And I'd definitely recommend getting a spare PC to setup as your test web server. The one I'm using is underpowered to be running any of todays GUI OS's. It's a 400 mHz Celeron with 512 mb RAM with a 40 mb hard drive. Ubuntu Server (no GUI) runs great on it. Now I would not want to try to power a full blown web site on it that has a lot of traffic but it works great for testing and experimenting. If you wanted to set up a MAC or Windows server you are going to need a lot more beefier machine as it's going to need to power the GUI besides the web software. The nice thing about the Ubuntu Server is the command line OS does not require much horsepower but I can administer it remotely from my Mac or PC using a GUI interface in the browser using a program called Webmin. A user from this site, ZOX, turned me on to it. It has made my Linux life a great deal easier. It also includes a browser based file manager which makes moving around the Linux directory hierarchy much better.
Mac OS 11.5.2 Big Sur | Prinergy 9.0.1.125 | Adobe Creative Cloud 2021 | TWO Fuji CTP Units

I'm Sorry I Hurt Your Feelings When I Said You Were Stupid. I Honestly Thought You Already Knew

Offline DigitalCrapShoveler

  • Mighty Joe's Son
  • Supreme Ninja
  • ***
  • Posts: 23057
  • Gender: Male
  • Let me know if you're a size 14.
Re: Starting off...
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2008, 12:54:01 PM »
How are the tutorials that comes with Premium CS3 with DreamWeaver and Flash, worth getting into or should I just do what I always do and tinker till I get it figured out?

Joe, I have marked this page, so later on when all the shit you just said will make sense to me. I think I get the just of it, now, I just have to get through all these annual reports and I am gold.
Bates  •  Vorhees  •  Meyers  •  Krueger  •  Hobbs  •  Lecter  •  Dollarhyde  •  Bateman  •  Gumb  •  Doe  •  Morgan •  Todd •  Kevin •  DCS •  Kasem

"Does it really matter? There's shit in the meat and we're all pink inside. Live a little..." The Gnub

"I look forward to the sweet release of death..." Dave, on behalf of all Prepress

Member #285 • OG PH8 • Award-Winning • Population Control Enthusiast • Master of Freehand Jobs • Hater of All • Prodigy of Addition & Subtraction

Offline Joe

  • Master of Nothing
  • Administrator
  • Ninja Warlord
  • *****
  • Posts: 38684
  • Gender: Male
    • B4Print.com
  • Gender: male
Re: Starting off...
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2008, 01:03:15 PM »
I don't usually do tutorials as I just usually jump in the pool and then look for the alligators.

But I did some of the Flash tutorials. It was very basic stuff and I was quite bored with it. I don't think it's my cup of tea.

I'm like gnubler too when it comes to DreamWeaver. I use it to modify PHP files. The color coding and line numbering is nice. You'll appreciate the line numbering. When you get an error (and you will), php gives you the name of the file and what line number the error is on. Using DreamWeaver you can scroll right to the line in question. Using something like TextEdit you will have to manually count the lines. PIA.

Myself (and Jezza) used WordPress to create the front end for this site. B4Print

I'm using Joomla to create a site for work. Customer file submission as well as a press schedule so everyone can view what is going on no matter where on the planet they happen to be.
Mac OS 11.5.2 Big Sur | Prinergy 9.0.1.125 | Adobe Creative Cloud 2021 | TWO Fuji CTP Units

I'm Sorry I Hurt Your Feelings When I Said You Were Stupid. I Honestly Thought You Already Knew

Offline ninjaPB_43

  • Head Ninja In Corporate America (Tha HNICA)
  • Ninja Master
  • **
  • Posts: 6796
  • Irie Minded
Re: Starting off...
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2008, 01:22:48 PM »
DCS, I have an old PC(not sure on specs) just sitting in my attic..    If you want to pay shipping or drive down to Denton, you can have it..   

let me know if youre interested, and I'll pull it out and get what specs are to see if it would even work for you with Ubuntu.

you would need a monitor, I believe, Its been so long I dont remember exactly what all's up there.  Kym's grandma passed away about 1.5yr ago, and it was just given to me. 
« Last Edit: March 06, 2008, 01:25:40 PM by ninjaPB_43 »
People will notice the change in your attitude towards them, but won't notice their behavior that made you change.  -Bob Marley

Offline almaink

  • Profeebfilefixer
  • Ninja Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1196
  • Gender: Male
  • Whacking and stacking since '76
Re: Starting off...
« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2008, 01:23:00 PM »
If you want tutorials Adobe has a site full of them.
http://www.adobe.com/designcenter/tutorials/
OS10.6.8  OS10.10.5
Windows 10
Cannon C6000
Oce TDS 860
Kodak Digimaster 9110
Don't Crush That Dwarf, Hand Me the Pliers

Offline gnubler

  • Ninja Warlord
  • ***
  • Posts: 28334
  • Gender: Male
  • Amerkin
Re: Starting off...
« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2008, 02:34:48 PM »
Also, if you don't want to set up a box as an actual server, there are free apps that emulate servers on your local drive.

Windows has WampServer, Mac has MAMP.

If you are doing any development involving PHP and databases, you will need this to test pages on your local drive (nice to be able to work offline if internet isn't available).
Hicks • Cross • Carlin • Kinison • Parker • Stone •  Colbert • Hedberg • Stanhope • Burr

"As much as I'd like your guns I prefer your buns." - The G

So,  :drunk3: i send the job to the rip with live transparecy (v 1.7 or whatever) and it craps out with a memory error.

Member #14 • Size 5 • PH8 Unit 7 • Paranoid Misanthropic Doomsayer • Printing & Drinking Since 1998 • doomed ©2011 david

Offline DigitalCrapShoveler

  • Mighty Joe's Son
  • Supreme Ninja
  • ***
  • Posts: 23057
  • Gender: Male
  • Let me know if you're a size 14.
Re: Starting off...
« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2008, 03:01:05 PM »
Man, you all have been very accomodating! I have everything I need, so don't sweat the PC Ninja, but thank you very, very much. I have a lot to digest, so again thank you all very much. This thread has been extremely helpful.
Bates  •  Vorhees  •  Meyers  •  Krueger  •  Hobbs  •  Lecter  •  Dollarhyde  •  Bateman  •  Gumb  •  Doe  •  Morgan •  Todd •  Kevin •  DCS •  Kasem

"Does it really matter? There's shit in the meat and we're all pink inside. Live a little..." The Gnub

"I look forward to the sweet release of death..." Dave, on behalf of all Prepress

Member #285 • OG PH8 • Award-Winning • Population Control Enthusiast • Master of Freehand Jobs • Hater of All • Prodigy of Addition & Subtraction

Offline gnubler

  • Ninja Warlord
  • ***
  • Posts: 28334
  • Gender: Male
  • Amerkin
Re: Starting off...
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2009, 04:44:13 PM »
Don't forget about this:

Hicks • Cross • Carlin • Kinison • Parker • Stone •  Colbert • Hedberg • Stanhope • Burr

"As much as I'd like your guns I prefer your buns." - The G

So,  :drunk3: i send the job to the rip with live transparecy (v 1.7 or whatever) and it craps out with a memory error.

Member #14 • Size 5 • PH8 Unit 7 • Paranoid Misanthropic Doomsayer • Printing & Drinking Since 1998 • doomed ©2011 david

Offline ninjaPB_43

  • Head Ninja In Corporate America (Tha HNICA)
  • Ninja Master
  • **
  • Posts: 6796
  • Irie Minded
Re: Starting off...
« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2009, 11:33:08 PM »

Don't forget about this:




This is outdated(2006), I think the newer version has higher swearing numbers... :tongue:
People will notice the change in your attitude towards them, but won't notice their behavior that made you change.  -Bob Marley