Why are CTP plates still more expensive?

[30YearsandCounting]

4-5 years ago we installed a thermal CTP machine.  At the time, CTP plates were much more expensive than what we had been paying for conventional analog plates.  The argument was that it was supply and demand, less manufacturing capacity etc.  In other words, it was less competitive and they could get better margins on this new type of plate.

Since then, all plate manufacturing is primarily CTP and very, very little of the old analog plates.  Our CTP plates pricing has come down, but it is still more expensive than what I can buy analog plates for in the same size, from the same manufacturer.  Both types of plates use the same aluminum metal.  The difference is only in the coating.  I know that the cost of everything else has gone up, but should there still be a significant difference in the price between the two types of plates?

[beermonster]

great question!

steve agfa?

mark tonk?

sadly this is another reason we havent gone ctp yet

[30YearsandCounting]

It would be great to hear what Kodak/Fuji/Agfa's explanation is.   
Have other users had the same experience?

[Marktonk]

Beer,

I do not have an answer because we only sell plates for CtP as value added. We dop not sell analog plates.

Regards,

Mark Tonkovich
Heidelberg USA

[frailer]

Good question. Shall ask relevant Fuji person next time we speak. We were paying about $AU5 for analogue. Now a smidgin over $AU7 for CTP. Possibly emulsion sensitivity/cost of coating[production cost more?]. Only guessing. bear in mind we are on violet photopolymer CTP, [newer generation~not silver halide violet].

[color_prepress]

the price for CTP price will drop when chinese CTP plate's quality improved and accepted by people. Currently, all CTP plate controlled and manufactured by those "brand" company which they will charge as much as they can.
Soon, the price will drop to and only higher a little compare with Analog plate.

[mwc]

Well in the Grand Scheme of things, I can think of a few reasons...(I' don't have any authoritative info...)

1. The R&D on conventional plates is way less expensive (a long history) then emerging and improving technology...CTP.
2. When you go CTP, you cut film as a revenue stream from your vendor...once film and plates, now just plates
3. Don't forget the savings in chemistry costs...(or no chem in the processless plate world)
4. Savings in time and labor to your company by ditching the old analog ways.
I'm sure supply and demand issues too...they'll price 'em at the point the market can bear, as of course they are a business too.

[30YearsandCounting]

I'm sure supply and demand issues too...they'll price 'em at the point the market can bear, as of course they are a business too.

No argument that we saved money by eliminating film, but we had to invest heavily in a CTP unit and digital proofing etc. in order to do that.  The R&D argument was ok when CTP was relatively new and there weren't that many users.  That's not the case anymore.  Your point that they are a business and will charge whatever the market will bear, probably hits the nail right on the head.  If we don't question or challenge the pricing, it won't be reduced.  As printers, we are in business as well and if we want to survive we need to look for cost savings where ever we can.  If the plate margins are substantial... we need to try and get that reduced.  There sure aren't big margins in printing.  I don't think that there is any good reason why the price of CTP plates should not be at least close to where the price of analog plates is. 

[Goodgulf]

Because they can charge whatever the market will bear.  That is why we switched from Kodak to IBF.  The price difference was incredible.

[ninjaPB_43]

Because they can charge whatever the market will bear. 

just want to reiterate that point!!   from an economic standpoint this IS the reason.  (Im not throwing any stones, but how do we know the plate manufacturers and vendors aren't in bed with each other?   and setting a price point for the market...) 

We've actually had several price increases over the past 2 years..    ???  (but Im banking on that being them trying to get their price back up to where it should be because when we signed into the contract, the owner here caught the fuji rep quoting us .08 gauge price for .12 gauge plates, and he had to live up to his quote-business can be so cut-throat sometimes) 

anyhoo, thats me 2 pennies./

[hagar_uk]

4-5 years ago we installed a thermal CTP machine.  At the time, CTP plates were much more expensive than what we had been paying for conventional analog plates.  The argument was that it was supply and demand, less manufacturing capacity etc.  In other words, it was less competitive and they could get better margins on this new type of plate.

Since then, all plate manufacturing is primarily CTP and very, very little of the old analog plates.  Our CTP plates pricing has come down, but it is still more expensive than what I can buy analog plates for in the same size, from the same manufacturer.  Both types of plates use the same aluminum metal.  The difference is only in the coating.  I know that the cost of everything else has gone up, but should there still be a significant difference in the price between the two types of plates?

Everyone has to make a profit, making plates is not just raw material and production cost, but R&D costs and support costs. 

The same way cost of printing more than just the costs of paper and ink.

Another reason is why would they want to lower prices. Analogue plates may be cheaper.  But printing costs are cheaper in China, and I doubt anyone on here should think printer in the US and Europe should be trying match them on pricing

[30YearsandCounting]

There's nothing wrong with making a profit.  But if your customer thinks that they are being taken advantage of, they will go somewhere else.  The raw materials, the distribution and support costs are the same whether its ctp or analog plates.  There's no difference.  R&D is the only real wild card.  Analog R&D was done and paid for years ago.  CTP R&D is still ongoing.  But, CTP production is growing and growing.  There is a much larger customer base to spread the costs over.  Should CTP cost more than analog?  Probably a little bit, but not 20% more.  The largest cost component in a plate is the aluminum.  That cost has gone up significantly in the last few years, but it's the same whether it's CTP or analog.  My point is that we need to question why the difference is so high or the price will never come down.  Keeping costs reasonable is the only way we are going to be able to compete and stay in business.

[hagar_uk]

There's nothing wrong with making a profit.  But if your customer thinks that they are being taken advantage of, they will go somewhere else.  The raw materials, the distribution and support costs are the same whether its ctp or analog plates.  There's no difference.  R&D is the only real wild card.  Analog R&D was done and paid for years ago.  CTP R&D is still ongoing.  But, CTP production is growing and growing.  There is a much larger customer base to spread the costs over.  Should CTP cost more than analog?  Probably a little bit, but not 20% more.  The largest cost component in a plate is the aluminum.  That cost has gone up significantly in the last few years, but it's the same whether it's CTP or analog.  My point is that we need to question why the difference is so high or the price will never come down.  Keeping costs reasonable is the only way we are going to be able to compete and stay in business.

But with the introduction of CTP, it has meant the demise of film, and in some cases chemistry and profit these created. If you cut out the revenue and profit these generate you need to make more from your digital products to compensate.

The market is such that at the moment that most companies even ones doing well supplying pre-press equipment will say things ar enot what they used be, and it is a shrinking hard market.

Of course competion will always dictate pricing, and if or rather when ever any new players come into the market. it will no doubt lead to changes in pricing

[Laurens]

Manufacturing costs are higher for CtP plates: the alu graining needs to be better, the coating process is more difficult, manufacturing tolerances are tighter, proper care during transport is more important due to the plates being more vulnerable (or engines being more difficult about handling plates with slight cracks), slipsheets are more expensive because automated plateloaders are not as flexible as human operators when it comes to picking up a thin sheet of paper), shelf life is lower for some types of plates.

Seybold published an article about this some time ago but apparently it isn't available on-line.

[30YearsandCounting]

Manufacturing costs are higher for CtP plates: the alu graining needs to be better, the coating process is more difficult, manufacturing tolerances are tighter, proper care during transport is more important due to the plates being more vulnerable (or engines being more difficult about handling plates with slight cracks), slipsheets are more expensive because automated plateloaders are not as flexible as human operators when it comes to picking up a thin sheet of paper), shelf life is lower for some types of plates.

Seybold published an article about this some time ago but apparently it isn't available on-line.

Interesting comments...
I have had plate specialists from two of the big manufacturers tell me that the metal is the same.  Even has the same graining.
You say the coating process is more difficult.  Why?  Is it just because they haven't been making CTP plates as long as analog and they are still learning?  Or... is the comment more to do with violet plates vs. thermal? 
Slight cracks???  How slight are you talking about?  I have never seen any plate (analog or CTP) show any indication that it had a "slight crack".  (and if it really is the same metal...)
Slip sheets... when you look at the price of a plate, I really don't think that the slip sheet is is a major cost factor.
Lower shelf life? ...again, this has not been my experience.  I have been told that they are good for 1 1/2 to 2 years.  And even if your comment is true, wouldn't that just require the manufacturer to manage their forecasts and production capacity?  It shouldn't really contribute to the cost unless they over produce and end up with too much inventory ...and it expires.

The reality is that the price is coming down.  Just not to where analog pricing is.  I always thought it was interesting when over the last couple of years, they come in and say that plate prices are going up because of the increase in the price of aluminum... but only the CTP plates