How to make CIP4 and ink key profiles work on our press

[geozinger]

My boss has decided that CIP4 profiles for setting density and ink keys is the way for us to get more productivity out of our presses. To that end, he purchased a Komori PCC II Bladesetter for our Komori 528 Lithrone press. The press is a 1995 model, too old to have a networkable console. The Bladesetter is a device that writes ink key information to a magnetic-strip card that is inserted into the console of the 528. Since I'm just a prepress manager, I have no experience running a printing press of that size and style. I feel I'm somewhat handicapped in understanding how the press actually produces work. I have been fortunate to have good pressmen both on night and day shift who are willing to work with me, so that part has been overcome to a degree.

The operation of the Bladesetter and software is pretty basic, we generate a CIP4 .PPF file from our Xitron Xenith Extreme workflow, and the Bladesetter creates ink key and density settings from a software program. However, since our machine does not have a networkable console, Komori doesn't appear to have any real game plan to get us working comfortably with the CIP4 information. If we had a KHS (Komori H-something System) equipped press, they (apparently) would go on site and get the CIP4 info and the press and console to all work together. Since our press is so old, and we are using a 'universal' type of RIP and prepress workflow, we're (IMO) creating our own set of procedures to make the CIP4 info work with our press. The Komori tech guy has advised us to use actual jobs as a method to find our way. But this method seems hit-or-miss and not very repeatable. My boss wants us to print  a GATF target and use that as a standard to print to. I think that's too restrictive.

My main question to other people who have gone down this path, what resources have you tapped in able to speed up the process? Is there a website somewhere that deals with this kind of thing? I have searched on the web and mostly found manufacturer's sales info on CIP4 implementation, but not a whole lot about the nuts and bolts of it all.

Any help in this matter would be greatly appreciated.

[born2print]

I don't think you're going to love this answer George, but here's my experience (specifically with InkPro and CIP3, then Printlink and CIP4 interfaced w/ late model Komoris and Heidis):
It is a problematic system, even with all of the hardware and consoles and onsite assistance with techs from the press manufacturers. Problems have included, but not limited to, simple misreading of file names at the press console to loss of connectivity and other issues in between... I don't think we'd have succeeded without the press techs taking care of nearly all of it. Also required a PC server in our setup, which has it's issues to boot.

[LRob]

I agree with Born. I set ours up with little to no tech help.What a pain in the ass. Hot folders on the Rip, Mac & PC. And  try to keep all those linked together (PITA).Plus the Pressmen said it saves them about 10 to 15 min. per Job.

[geozinger]

Born and LRob-
It sounds like you have working CIP3/4 systems. It also sounds like the keys and sweeps are being set on your machines. What I'm trying to get to is the fastest/best way to get a set up for our console to work with the information I'm generating from the RIP.

Is there a target that you guys used and then fed information back into the CIP3/4 software, for better or more accurate ink key settings? Or did you use the hit and miss system that the Komori tech guy advised me to use? That is, use the generic settings that come with the software, print a few jobs and make adjustments as you go?

TIA

[born2print]

Sorry GZ, I'm not sure, but I think they used the generated settings right from the box, or a predetermined adjustment that they already had from other installs at similar facilities. I don't think we "tweaked" the key settings beyond that. Take this w/ a grain of salt because we were pretty hands-off while the Heidi and Komori techs got it going.

Side note: We just installed a new cutter and it's the first piece of finishing equipment we'll have w/ CIP4 capability, stay tuned(?)

[LRob]

GZ keep in mind that the CIP3/4 file will get the press close sometimes real close, but it will not make it exact. The pressman will still have to adjust the color.The setting we use is the setting that is preset

[geozinger]

Sorry GZ, I'm not sure, but I think they used the generated settings right from the box, or a predetermined adjustment that they already had from other installs at similar facilities. I don't think we "tweaked" the key settings beyond that. Take this w/ a grain of salt because we were pretty hands-off while the Heidi and Komori techs got it going.

Side note: We just installed a new cutter and it's the first piece of finishing equipment we'll have w/ CIP4 capability, stay tuned(?)

OK no problem there. I will be interested to see how the CIP3/4 stuff works on the cutter, tho...

[geozinger]

GZ keep in mind that the CIP3/4 file will get the press close sometimes real close, but it will not make it exact. The pressman will still have to adjust the color.The setting we use is the setting that is preset

Ya, I follow what you're saying.

But I know ownership thinks this will make running the 5 color like running a toaster... Just pop the information in and... Presto!

A million dollar press that works as easy as a Xerox...

<rant>And if it doesn't work like that, then I get beat about the head and shoulders because I couldn't make it happen. Of course, every prepress person knows everything about any computer, software, printing press, cutter, folder, telecommunications satellite ever built, right? </rant>

I guess this reply should have gone in a different category, huh?

[David]

Of course, every prepress person knows everything about any computer, software, printing press, cutter, folder, telecommunications satellite ever built, right? </rant>

I guess this reply should have gone in a different category, huh?

see there...


you knew that!
you're a smart guy!!!


now, go fix that CIP3 crap and don't come back till it works, damit!


now, over here, our CIP3 works so well, we can send all of our pressmen home cause our presses run "automatically"!






if we only knew who this guy "auto" is and where he stays...



 

[born2print]

But I know ownership thinks this will make running the 5 color like running a toaster... Just pop the information in and... Presto!
A million dollar press that works as easy as a Xerox...

Yeh, if it was that easy, I think the word would have gotten out

[The Stevinator]

you guys might be better off just doing a calibration to G7 standards and be done with it.  that would probably reduce your makeready times, and increase your quality.  also, aren't your pressman pre-adjusting ink keys before they even start running the job?  a experienced pressman will get you in the ball park with where they should be set at.

[LoganBlade]

Make sure the keys are even on press run a square solid at each key zone and see what you get . I f press runs to standard on all your all set if not see if keys can be adjusted manually by pressman or mechanic so the setting are even. Then the future Cip data should be ok? Don't have cip but I would guess that would help get a feel for what is hot an what is not

[hagar_uk]

Born and LRob-
It sounds like you have working CIP3/4 systems. It also sounds like the keys and sweeps are being set on your machines. What I'm trying to get to is the fastest/best way to get a set up for our console to work with the information I'm generating from the RIP.

Is there a target that you guys used and then fed information back into the CIP3/4 software, for better or more accurate ink key settings? Or did you use the hit and miss system that the Komori tech guy advised me to use? That is, use the generic settings that come with the software, print a few jobs and make adjustments as you go?

TIA

You might want to take a look at the ink monitor connect software from Highwater. It can take TIFF or CIP3 data convert to inkkeys for press type, and connects via interface card system via  a host PC in then does all the ink key setup, like other systems. but the system is 2 way when you print a job and set your ink keys, it keeps a record of this. then when the pressmen tweaks this, it makes an automatic record of this over time the differences are recorded and the system  processes this data output is tweaked a, so make ready times are even less

[mrhooper]

We have been using the inking settings on a Heid SM52 for three years, and now on a SM74. If you get it set up right, it does work well. We went with a third party Cip4 Creator called Press Percent from excourse.com. Initially just wanted to try it rather then spending 5K for the creo option. For couple hundred, it is well worth it and does all that the proprietary versions do. Most important part is having a tech in to setup the console to interpret the values to where you want to be. Thats the most expensive part of the process. Dont let them leave till you are satisfied, and your pressmen know how to make adjustments.