We recently were requested by an agency to give them the print profile we require to send of pdfs for printing.
Well our proofer is setup with the icc profile: GRACoL20061v2_Coated so we gave them that. They will supply supposedly highly accurate digital proofs for us to match on press with a press approval. They want to see if we are up to their high quality standards.
In my muddled undertanding of color management this would make me think that all rgb to cymk conversions in photoshop should be using this profile. We've just been using U.S. Prepress defaults for this up till now and getting by ok. However, very few of our jobs are super color critical. And also, when exporting pdfs out of Indesign, I would think that the whole file should be exported with this profile as well, and ignoring embedded profiles. Would that change all of the cmyk separtations for example TAC values?
When we need less TAC for uncoated stock we just convert the coated image to an uncoated profile and this works ok as well.
We've got "older" pressmen here and they are used to struggling on the press to get the color right. Or sometimes we've had to work backwards and alter the values in the files to get the desired result ie. new plates being made. These situations don't happen very often however, like I said, the vast majority of our jobs are not that color critical.
There is no color management running in the rip so it's all done "upstream".
Any thoughts appreciated.
Color Management is not that simple. To do it right is to make everyones monitor (and not just any old cheap monitors), the proof and the press look the same and requires professional equipment with a pro that knows what they are doing that will be making proofs and taking readings followed up by plates being made and ran on press with more readings until at last they all match. Bring your big check book if you want it done right.
Other wise does their monitor match yours? Does both of your monitors match the proof? Does the proof match the press? If the answer to any of these are no...start over.
We have customers all the time asking about this because at some seminar somewhere some consultant brought up 'Color Management ~ the magical solution to making your publication perfect' by H. E. Don'tKnowShit
These people then come out of that seminar thinking all they have to do is get the printers 'magic profile' that doesn't exist on this planet and everything will be all rainbows and unicorns. And sorry if I sound touchy on this subject but it reared its ugly head at work again this week because some Douche Knuckle customer bought the supreme package at the seminar.
Wow! Quick answer! Kind of what I was expecting as well.
If the owner ever wants to spend the cash to do this right then MAYBE things will run smoother. I've had some experience with color gurus in the past and they are a lot like politicians sometimes... it's hard to get a straight up answer.
As for now we'll just have to play along with them and do our best.
One of the owners here told me to tell them our presses have 8 percent dot gain. :drunk3:
This kind of comment makes me realize I DO have some job security.
"And sorry if I sound touchy on this subject but it reared its ugly head at work again this week because some Douche Knuckle customer bought the supreme package at the seminar."
I actually found this funny. Haven't found much funny in a while.
comedy is tragedy plus time... or distance :drunk3: from the actual situation they say....
I remember one guy who came here and insisted that we run profiles on the output in QuarkXpress to pdf. ( In the Quark color management output area, some SWOP output profile).
I thought he must be much smarter than us at the time (was about 15 years ago or so). He claimed our Epson was not setup for color management properly and brought in what he was getting on his cheap desktop printer. God knows how he tweaked that sucker but our Epson looked bad... real bad compared to his "brighter" printout. Not accurate but surely "brighter".
He went somewhere else, I 'd love to know how that worked out for him, but this was my first bad experience with color management.
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing?
Quote from: Joe on September 24, 2016, 08:05:55 AMColor Management is not that simple. To do it right is to make everyones monitor (and not just any old cheap monitors), the proof and the press look the same and requires professional equipment with a pro that knows what they are doing that will be making proofs and taking readings followed up by plates being made and ran on press with more readings until at last they all match. Bring your big check book if you want it done right.
Other wise does their monitor match yours? Does both of your monitors match the proof? Does the proof match the press? If the answer to any of these are no...start over.
We have customers all the time asking about this because at some seminar somewhere some consultant brought up 'Color Management ~ the magical solution to making your publication perfect' by H. E. Don'tKnowShit
These people then come out of that seminar thinking all they have to do is get the printers 'magic profile' that doesn't exist on this planet and everything will be all rainbows and unicorns. And sorry if I sound touchy on this subject but it reared its ugly head at work again this week because some Douche Knuckle customer bought the supreme package at the seminar.
Might have to do some creative thinking when they call us in a couple of hours on the speaker phone then.
The whole point of color control, within a print shop is: To make the proof look as bad as the press. To use dot-gain compensation on plate, to offset press problems. This way, the plates are helping the pressman run at normal density. The proof shows the client how it will reproduce on YOUR press (not their fucking office printer).
I have showed people my contract spectroproof, only to have them produce a bright proof off their color laser at their office... telling me to match. I hand them their print, and my proof and tell them to adjust their file.
The problem in the industry today is Desktop Publishing. Anyone can make a PDF. They think our proof and press should match their printer. The pros know better but we end up dealing with people who have no knowledge and unrealistic expectations. Yes, the customer is sometimes wrong, and I am just fine telling them about it.
Quote from: Ear on September 26, 2016, 02:31:47 PMYes, the customer is sometimes always wrong, and I am just fine telling them about it.
Fixed! :rotf:
Well, ended up on conference call with 9 people across Canada / USA and managed to convince them we know what we're doing.
Now we will have to show them we can. Even if we have to make 4 sets of plates, we'll match their "professional proof" (unless it's all wacked out) and we'll survive the press approval.
If the proof we recieve IS "wacked out" to the pdfs they supply, then I can smell another conference call coming.
Agreeing to matching a customer supplied proof these days is insanity redefined. Back in the day you had Cromalins, Match Prints, Kodak Approvals, etc...that were made with some kind of industry standards but more than likely now they have some fancy 12 color inkjet printed on a glossy super white stock that will be impossible to match. Good luck with that.
I know, but we do it all the time and I do know how crazy it is.
That's the way they do things and it's a huge multinational company. They will be coming for a press approval so somebody will have to sign it off.
:drunk3:
I see a whole lot of :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3: :drunk3:
In your future.
Oh lovely! Something to look forward to!
We used to print a whole quarterly medical journal here..... assembled pdf ads in Indesign with copy supplied. Each ad came with it's own agency supplied pdf. All different agencies all kinds of proofs.
Had some wild times with that job. Drove the pressmen nuts matching the color. Luckily, only a few complaints from the drug companies, then we had to fiddle with the pdfs in pitstop and or touchup to get it better next time.
:drunk3:
I'm sorry, if I didn't produce it on my proofer, it isn't a proof.
I love when they give you a previous sample from a different shop and we don't match, and determine that the previous printing was shit, and they insist we match it. :ohno:
You wouldn't believe some of the tap dancing we're had to do here over the years. It would qualify as "SHENANIGANS". :drunk3: :drunk3:
:drunk:
And you can throw a bit of MALARKEY in there as well. BLACK MAGIC and BULLS*&T as well.
Oh boy, this story is getting weirder by the day. I'll try and post when able.
Hint: Part of its about the REFLEX BLUE to process conversion. The client is very fussy about hitting that color in process. :drunk3:
My gray hair may soon start falling out.
REFLEX BLUE to cmyk? You can't get there from here.
It's out of Gamut damnit. :drunk3:
waaaay out if I remember correctly. :shoots_self:
The facts will never stop a customer from asking the impossible. His last shop did it so your facts are wrong. Matters not how much info you can place into their hands proving your point, the last shop did it. How do you get reflex to look like reflex? Fill the fountain with it and run the job as 5c. Fuck the customer that wants you to do backflips and change the world so they can save by making the job 4c. Out the gate you already have a problem. God bless. you're fucked
That's one of the problems with shops doing the impossible just to get the work. The last shop does some witchcraft to placate them, your shop prices it lower not knowing the hell involved and you're left on the hook to make it happen. It doesn't matter how many hours it takes jerking around with the files, how many other customers get pissed because of the crippled throughput, as long as the "big client" (group of total assholes) is happy.
Then the client gets a price cheaper from some other sucker that's less than the money you're loosing on every job and they bounce to them. It's like a hot chick with herpes. You know it's going to be a shitshow; you know it's going to hurt and bring you to tears but you do it anyway. The only difference is you might be able to recover and put it behind you. Herpes never goes away or so I've heard.
somehow your analogy of comparing print buying to contracting herpes makes sense.
Quote from: Farabomb on September 28, 2016, 09:46:15 AMThe facts will never stop a customer from asking the impossible. His last shop did it so your facts are wrong. Matters not how much info you can place into their hands proving your point, the last shop did it. How do you get reflex to look like reflex? Fill the fountain with it and run the job as 5c. Fuck the customer that wants you to do backflips and change the world so they can save by making the job 4c. Out the gate you already have a problem. God bless. you're fucked
That's one of the problems with shops doing the impossible just to get the work. The last shop does some witchcraft to placate them, your shop prices it lower not knowing the hell involved and you're left on the hook to make it happen. It doesn't matter how many hours it takes jerking around with the files, how many other customers get pissed because of the crippled throughput, as long as the "big client" (group of total assholes) is happy.
Then the client gets a price cheaper from some other sucker that's less than the money you're loosing on every job and they bounce to them. It's like a hot chick with herpes. You know it's going to be a shitshow; you know it's going to hurt and bring you to tears but you do it anyway. The only difference is you might be able to recover and put it behind you. Herpes never goes away or so I've heard.
Sad, sobering, but true
I wanted to wait till the second page to weigh in. Joe's posts on the first page are just too perfect and explains in simple terms just how impossible what they are asking is. It all falls on the people that have ZERO experience in a print production environment yet think they can implement things. Yes Mr. Engineer, in the land of circular cows what you propose might be able to work if everything is perfect. NOTHING IS EVER PERFECT.
It can be done, it's not impossible. What almost everyone misses is the cost involved. If a customer insists and you don't have CM in place let them walk, unless they are willing to foot the bill. Anything else is just pissing up a rope and hastening the doors closing.
Everyone associates the devil and the color red but the devils true color is reflex blue! It is from HELL!
...but if it's from hell, why don't it dry?
Yu
Quote from: Farabomb on September 28, 2016, 09:46:15 AMThe facts will never stop a customer from asking the impossible. His last shop did it so your facts are wrong. Matters not how much info you can place into their hands proving your point, the last shop did it. How do you get reflex to look like reflex? Fill the fountain with it and run the job as 5c. Fuck the customer that wants you to do backflips and change the world so they can save by making the job 4c. Out the gate you already have a problem. God bless. you're fucked
That's one of the problems with shops doing the impossible just to get the work. The last shop does some witchcraft to placate them, your shop prices it lower not knowing the hell involved and you're left on the hook to make it happen. It doesn't matter how many hours it takes jerking around with the files, how many other customers get pissed because of the crippled throughput, as long as the "big client" (group of total assholes) is happy.
Then the client gets a price cheaper from some other sucker that's less than the money you're loosing on every job and they bounce to them. It's like a hot chick with herpes. You know it's going to be a shitshow; you know it's going to hurt and bring you to tears but you do it anyway. The only difference is you might be able to recover and put it behind you. Herpes never goes away or so I've heard.
Yup - I'd be running RB as a spot for sure.
Quote from: born2print on September 28, 2016, 11:37:15 AM...but if it's from hell, why don't it dry?
I'm in hell (Illinois). It is very humid!
Quote from: born2print on September 28, 2016, 11:37:15 AM...but if it's from hell, why don't it dry?
Because it's made from unicorn pee, the tears of children and virgin blood.
They should call it reflux blue :vomit:
Now they want to run the job 5 color with reflex blue. It is what they wanted in the first place but remember, we have 10 people involved now in this project so everything will get screwed up.
Who is on first?
Ok, is ANYONE here all that surprised?
I remember many, many times being warned of some clusterfuck job coming in. You know, like 8 spot colors, diecut, sewn perfect bound, gatefold cover, AQ with understrike varnish, stepped sheets with tabs and film lam. You spend a month preparing for it, running tests and making your life a living hell. Then this SS 4c job comes in with the customer's name on it. You inquire about the big book that's coming in and the CSR says oh, when we told the customer how much it was going to cost they changed the specs. Ummmm, did you think to tell anyone so we don't do all these tests and extra work for something that will never come in?
Quote from: Farabomb on September 28, 2016, 02:02:54 PMOk, is ANYONE here all that surprised?
I remember many, many times being warned of some clusterfuck job coming in. You know, like 8 spot colors, diecut, sewn perfect bound, gatefold cover, AQ with understrike varnish, stepped sheets with tabs and film lam. You spend a month preparing for it, running tests and making your life a living hell. Then this SS 4c job comes in with the customer's name on it. You inquire about the big book that's coming in and the CSR says oh, when we told the customer how much it was going to cost they changed the specs. Ummmm, did you think to tell anyone so we don't do all these tests and extra work for something that will never come in?
Crazy talk there. :rotf:
Prepress:
First in last out
This is all for a lasagna pan label that will end up in walmart. If we dont ace that reflex blue.... can you just imagine how pissed off those shoppers will be?
Quote from: pspdfppdfxhd on September 28, 2016, 03:22:43 PMThis is all for a lasagna pan label that will end up in walmart. If we dont ace that reflex blue.... can you just imagine how pissed off those shoppers will be?
...so you're an FDA compliant shop and checking all CPSIA requirements, of course.
:shoots_self: :shoots_self: :shoots_self:
Quote from: pspdfppdfxhd on September 28, 2016, 03:22:43 PMThis is all for a lasagna pan label that will end up in walmart. If we dont ace that reflex blue.... can you just imagine how pissed off those shoppers will be?
I know I'll be checking those colors carefully as I shop with my Pantone book in hand!
Quote from: born2print on September 28, 2016, 03:37:59 PMQuote from: pspdfppdfxhd on September 28, 2016, 03:22:43 PMThis is all for a lasagna pan label that will end up in walmart. If we dont ace that reflex blue.... can you just imagine how pissed off those shoppers will be?
...so you're an FDA compliant shop and checking all CPSIA requirements, of course.
:shoots_self: :shoots_self: :shoots_self:
dont know about that, but we are fsc and pefc certified, so we are helping change the world you know..... maybe affecting global climate change and the like. I can sleep at night knowing our chidren face a brighter tomorrow.
Quote from: Joe on September 28, 2016, 01:34:56 PMWho is on first?
Dunno, but I suppose reflex blue will be on fifth. (cylinder on the press I mean)
Quote from: pspdfppdfxhd on September 28, 2016, 03:22:43 PMThis is all for a lasagna pan label that will end up in walmart. If we dont ace that reflex blue.... can you just imagine how pissed off those shoppers will be?
I'm amazed they aren't getting the printing done in China where their cheap shit pan is made.
The only concern for walmart shoppers is the $.99 price on the label. They use only the best lasagna pans for cooking their meth.
Quote from: pspdfppdfxhd on September 28, 2016, 04:05:31 PMQuote from: Joe on September 28, 2016, 01:34:56 PMWho is on first?
Dunno, but I suppose reflex blue will be on fifth. (cylinder on the press I mean)
I thought the WalMart "Equate" logo was always PMS 287?
It's complicated.
It is all a very humbling experience. Just when you think you're pretty good, along comes a curve ball that pulls you out of your shoes. Never fails.
Speaking of curve balls, how about that wild card race in the American league east?
Can hardly bear to watch these final 4 games. It's like the playoffs already, and if we do make it to the 1 game playoff how nerve wracking that will be. Looks like the BlueJays have reflex blue in their logos.....ARRRRG!
The thing is, it's not a curve, it's a doctored pitch that's impossible to hit. No need to get yourself down because you couldn't do the impossible.
Quote from: Farabomb on September 29, 2016, 10:32:04 AMThe thing is, it's not a curve, it's a doctored pitch that's impossible to hit. No need to get yourself down because you couldn't do the impossible.
Thanks, yeah, I hear you.
I know it's not a good trait to take it all on yourself. You can end up chasing your tail and running around in circles. Its' worse when management just assumes you will figure EVERYTHING out. :drunk3: :drunk3:
The problem is overall I have been able to figure almost everything out. All that gets me is, "well, how come you couldn't do that too?"
EXACTLY
Quote from: Farabomb on September 29, 2016, 10:32:04 AMThe thing is, it's not a curve, it's a doctored pitch that's impossible to hit. No need to get yourself down because you couldn't do the impossible.
Maybe the highly illegal "spitball?"
GO BLUE JAYS! :drunk3:
Or the throw a beer at the opposing team's players pitch Jay's fans are known for.
Quote from: Farabomb on October 07, 2016, 11:23:40 AMOr the throw a beer at the opposing team's players pitch Jay's fans are known for.
I KNEW that comment would come from someone eventually....
Hey, the attendance at that game was about 49,000 so the other 48,999 were well behaved.....why the hell they sell beers in tall cans has always been a mystery to me. There is always a wack job in the crowd of that size.
Quote from: Farabomb on October 07, 2016, 11:23:40 AMOr the throw a beer at the opposing team's players pitch Jay's fans are known for.
Who's Jay? Jay Leno?
Quote from: pspdfppdfxhd on October 07, 2016, 01:09:49 PMQuote from: Farabomb on October 07, 2016, 11:23:40 AMOr the throw a beer at the opposing team's players pitch Jay's fans are known for.
I KNEW that comment would come from someone eventually....
Hey, the attendance at that game was about 49,000 so the other 48,999 were well behaved.....why the hell they sell beers in tall cans has always been a mystery to me. There is always a wack job in the crowd of that size.
To be honest I know less than nothing about sports. I do know that your guys don't hold a candle to our metro area fans. It seems to be their job to get rip-roaring drunk and act like shitheads and that's even before they get into the stadium.
Now, in the tradition of the US of bullshit laws, You guys can't have canned beer anymore. (http://deadspin.com/the-blue-jays-will-no-longer-serve-canned-beer-to-their-1787623547) Since someone else did something, everyone has to pay for them being an asshole.
Quote from: Farabomb on October 11, 2016, 08:22:00 AMQuote from: pspdfppdfxhd on October 07, 2016, 01:09:49 PMQuote from: Farabomb on October 07, 2016, 11:23:40 AMOr the throw a beer at the opposing team's players pitch Jay's fans are known for.
I KNEW that comment would come from someone eventually....
Hey, the attendance at that game was about 49,000 so the other 48,999 were well behaved.....why the hell they sell beers in tall cans has always been a mystery to me. There is always a wack job in the crowd of that size.
To be honest I know less than nothing about sports. I do know that your guys don't hold a candle to our metro area fans. It seems to be their job to get rip-roaring drunk and act like shitheads and that's even before they get into the stadium.
Now, in the tradition of the US of bullshit laws, You guys can't have canned beer anymore. (http://deadspin.com/the-blue-jays-will-no-longer-serve-canned-beer-to-their-1787623547) Since someone else did something, everyone has to pay for them being an asshole.
Yes, but those cans are your 16oz pints, not the regular 12oz ones, and they cost about 12 bucks a pop. You would not believe how many people would come back to their seAts with 2 in hand, then 2 more..I could not afford it. Cups should have been the answer a long time ago but you know what they were worried about? It takes longer to pour out a cup of beer than to pass a can to you. All about the money.