I am doing a print job for a professor at a local University. She came to review the proof and we started discussing prepress technical stuff. She knows her stuff and was telling me about a project, where she was folding up 16pg sigs and doing things to illustrate ghosting and bleed, etc... actually teaching about the press. I was excited to hear it.
She asked me to prepare a presentation and to come be a guest speaker for a day, in the next couple of weeks. I'm not worried about material, and I can definitely go off on prepress stuff for an hour, but thought it might be good to get input from you guys, since you are my peers. I'm planning on covering the basics of the equipment and mechanics, like bleed and separations, etc...
What would you tell a college class, regarding our profession? What do we want to pass on to our successors? Think about it, I just might open this thread during my lecture.
Southern Oregon University?
Twice now, at two different shops in two different cities, I've had a junior college design class visit our shop. When relaying the daily issues of dealing with files from designers, I mostly focused on the differences between RGB and CMYK, and proper resolution. I also specified the importance of using the right tools for the right jobs - InDesign for page layout, Illustrator for logos and custom elements and Photoshop for photos ONLY. I also briefly showed how to check their work before submitting to a service bureau.
Quote from: Ear on September 13, 2016, 05:22:45 PMI am doing a print job for a professor at a local University. She came to review the proof and we started discussing prepress technical stuff. She knows her stuff and was telling me about a project, where she was folding up 16pg sigs and doing things to illustrate ghosting and bleed, etc... actually teaching about the press. I was excited to hear it.
She asked me to prepare a presentation and to come be a guest speaker for a day, in the next couple of weeks. I'm not worried about material, and I can definitely go off on prepress stuff for an hour, but thought it might be good to get input from you guys, since you are my peers. I'm planning on covering the basics of the equipment and mechanics, like bleed and separations, etc...
What would you tell a college class, regarding our profession? What do we want to pass on to our successors? Think about it, I just might open this thread during my lecture.
Run AWAY as fast you can from printing. Seriously. I would never, ever suggest a young person to make it their life's work.
... I should add that the class is Graphic Design, specifically typesetting and composition. These people probably want to be primarily web designers but need to know the print side too. There is a secondary commentary to be had on their view of print dying, just because news is moving away from print.
I know I would like to see more designers who actually care about the print end. The amount of resources and time it takes to print something that is expensive to throw away, vs to upload a design to the web and be able to fix it the next day, and the day after. With print, the devil is in the details, and one little detail can turn a whole job into recycle.
Anyway, I don't think these are immediate prepress prospects, I just want them to know what happens when they hand it off and why they should care.
Quote from: Joe on September 13, 2016, 05:33:50 PMRun AWAY as fast you can from printing. Seriously. I would never, ever suggest a young person to make it their life's work.
You could've just said "first". I knew this reply was coming. :rotf: Hell, I was even thinking it.
The reality is, they won't listen to us about what not to do with their lives, but maybe they'll pick up some tips on how to make it easier. Let them know what the grumpy prepress guy on the other side of the FTP is up against.
Think about it this way: We are mostly the last printers to have handled film, hot type, analog prepress. If we don't pass it on, it will be lost. I like what I do, I just don't always like who I do it for... I guess we're like sechs workers.
Yes, Corn, SOU. I'm lucky that the teacher is already covering a lot of the stuff you mentioned. She has past print production and marketing experience. But I will certainly touch on those points. Keep 'em coming.
My .02:
Tell them to NEVER EVER NEVER EVER send a fucking logo in a MS word document.
But really though:
-what is bleed, and how can it help you
-6 pt. reverse type: not your friend...
-enforce the "looks good on my screen" doesnt translate to "looks good on paper"
Quote from: Ear on September 13, 2016, 05:39:58 PMQuote from: Joe on September 13, 2016, 05:33:50 PMRun AWAY as fast you can from printing. Seriously. I would never, ever suggest a young person to make it their life's work.
You could've just said "first". I knew this reply was coming. :rotf: Hell, I was even thinking it.
The reality is, they won't listen to us about what not to do with their lives, but maybe they'll pick up some tips on how to make it easier. Let them know what the grumpy prepress guy on the other side of the FTP is up against.
Think about it this way: We are mostly the last printers to have handled film, hot type, analog prepress. If we don't pass it on, it will be lost. I like what I do, I just don't always like who I do it for... I guess we're like sechs workers.
Yeah I know and it is sad to see others waste their working life in a dead end career. :'(
In addition to some of the things already mentioned...explain PDF page boxes and why it is important to create documents at the trim size and then add bleed extending past the document edge (trim). I have far too many people sending everything at 8.5" x 11" no matter what the final size is supposed to be. Or they create the document at bleed size which, while it will work, it is still wrong! And then you have dumbasses creating it at the right size but placing text right at the trim. You can't even reduce them to move the type away from trim without losing all of your bleed if you were lucky enough to get it.
And explain we aren't complaining about their files to screw with them. We're actually trying to make the job right.
And also the time to go on vacation is not 30 seconds after they upload their files!
... make sure fonts are embedded in your PDF docs. Don't subset them, please.
Export as single pages, not Spreads.
... oh, NEVER printers' spreads. Readers' spreads sometimes, but ...
Quote from: Ear on September 13, 2016, 05:34:00 PM... I should add that the class is Graphic Design, specifically typesetting and composition.
Being and Old Typesetter myself, my 2c worth would be Picas & Points. Every designer i ask these days has no idea on how many points in a pica.
But long gone are the days of character counting, column widths and leading involved with a design job. :old:
On a modern note it would deal with Additive & Subtractive colour theories and Ink Densities.
Find the hipsters in the class and use targeted words like "artisan", "free range", "organic", ect. to describe printing. Maybe they will latch on, create a huge market for artisan free-range printing. We all become gurus, command top dollar for our experience and then we can all move out of the trailer park.
If they're going to stay in the business, they need to know that print may have changed, but it's not dead. When they are asked to design a logo or branding for a business, they need to know how to create vector files, not just some gif for the web, and to provide vectors to the business for future use.
I can't tell you how many times we've been given a low rez gif for a print job, and "that's all they had." Sure, because all they asked for from the designer was a logo for their website and the designer didn't think two minutes ahead.
Ooooh! You get to teach designers!!!!
Definitely tell them about the problems from not knowing prepress!
Fonts, Size, Bleed, Ink Density, RGB to CMYK may change colors.
Photoshop text, Resolution, transparencies, Spot Colors, Blacks, Text to close to the edge
sheesh I could go on and on :laugh:
Good pdfs, Send packaged Natives if/when needed
Plus all kinds of press related stuff too!
Bindery samples, press sheets, show how sigs really work
I like the other suggestions too:
facing singles NOT spreads
Proper software
resolution / ppi / machine pixels / linescreen
bleed
font mgmt
communication with production before / during project
CMYK vs RGB (and the gamut size being about half) + spot colors
I like to throw in how IRL is billions of colors, monitors are millions, CMYK repro is only 100's of thousands. It's an illusion.
Plus I like to talk about historic methods (letterpress, litho, fils, etc...)
I like, I like... Once I refine all of this info, I will post my outline and get opinions. I really want them to know this is from a prepress community, not just one prepress guy. I really appreciate the input. Hopefully DCS pops in too.
I like Borns difference of ppi/line screen, etc.. light bulb moment for me when he told me that!
also take a set of plates if you can swing it, they will love it.
tell em about how ink and water don't mix, they'll go oooooohhh! :laugh:
The plates are a good idea. I should take some samples of good design/print and nightmare jobs, with reasons why each is good or bad.
Looks like Sept 29th, mid afternoon is the class that I am shooting for. That is 2 weeks from tomorrow. I'm sure I have more than one class worth of information to share, so leaning it down to the important stuff will be the trick. Also plenty of time for Corn, Looch and some other near left coasters to take a drive so they can stand in back of the class and heckle me.
If I wasn't on the other coast I'd DEFINITELY take a trip to watch this.
And probably learn me some shit too.
one major tip to pass along...
make your friggen page size the correct page size! Don't make a 8.5 x 11 file and place a box in the middle with crops if you want the final trim to be 4 x 6.
oh, and do me a favor and don't do me any favors.
Don't impose your file
Don't trap your file
Don't think you know what the printer needs, call them and ask!!
now, it's time for my drink! :drunk3:
Should I open with some Miyagi wisdom:
Learn no graphic design, okay... learn ALL graphic design, okay... learn just a little graphic design, squish like grape.
:azn: :azn: :azn:
To include bleed, DO NOT make your document size bigger. Learn where the bleed settings are in your program, they've all got them.
All good points made here.
With regards Bleed - a small point but an important one. If you have 3mm bleed and a 2mm ticks offset you effectively have 2mm bleed. Easy to change the settings but nobody remembers.
* or whatever imperial equivalent
Photoshop is for photos
Indy is for layout
Illustrator is for vector art
Just because the program has an option to set type in it, doesn't mean you should.
Quote from: Farabomb on September 15, 2016, 08:11:11 AMPhotoshop is for photos
Indy is for layout
Illustrator is for vector art
Just because the program has an option to set type in it, doesn't mean you should.
And Quark?
is dead.
Quote from: Joe on September 15, 2016, 08:33:05 AMAnd Quark?
I keep all my important stuff in the Trash can... :rotf:
So is (gulp) Freehand.
Another point: Office programs are NOT made for printing. That includes Pooplisher, PowerPuke, Word and Excel.
If you go by one of my very vocal customers you are very wrong. EVERYONE uses office so you are using the wrong software. She wasn't all that observant though. Her husband was busted for child pron later that year.
Quote from: Joe on September 15, 2016, 08:33:05 AMAnd Quark?
Quote from: Farabomb on September 15, 2016, 08:40:35 AMis dead.
How I wish that were true. Last night I had to pull an old job off of tape from May 2004. It was a Quark job. Guess what? You can't open Quark documents below version 9 in any version of Quark v9 or higher. You have to go to the Quark website and download the 'QuarkXPress Document Converter' which will convert earlier versions of Quark files to version 9 Quark files which then can be opened in Quark 9 or newer versions of Quark.
In case anyone is interested in that: QuarkXPress Document Converter 1.2 (http://www.quark.com/Support/Downloads/Details.aspx?fid=289)
Quote from: david on September 15, 2016, 09:35:23 AMQuote from: Joe on September 15, 2016, 08:33:05 AMAnd Quark?
I keep all my important stuff in the Trash can... :rotf:
You better hope I never get to use your computer. The first thing I do when I sit down at a computer is empty the trash. Just because! :tongue:
Quote from: Joe on September 15, 2016, 10:41:54 AMQuote from: Joe on September 15, 2016, 08:33:05 AMAnd Quark?
Quote from: Farabomb on September 15, 2016, 08:40:35 AMis dead.
How I wish that were true. Last night I had to pull an old job off of tape from May 2004. It was a Quark job. Guess what? You can't open Quark documents below version 9 in any version of Quark v9 or higher. You have to go to the Quark website and download the 'QuarkXPress Document Converter' which will convert earlier versions of Quark files to version 9 Quark files which then can be opened in Quark 9 or newer versions of Quark.
In case anyone is interested in that: QuarkXPress Document Converter 1.2 (http://www.quark.com/Support/Downloads/Details.aspx?fid=289)
SHHHHH! Keep that s#1t to yourself! I have everyone thinking that we can't use their old Qxds and it is working!
Quote from: born2print on September 15, 2016, 11:11:01 AMQuote from: Joe on September 15, 2016, 10:41:54 AMQuote from: Joe on September 15, 2016, 08:33:05 AMAnd Quark?
Quote from: Farabomb on September 15, 2016, 08:40:35 AMis dead.
How I wish that were true. Last night I had to pull an old job off of tape from May 2004. It was a Quark job. Guess what? You can't open Quark documents below version 9 in any version of Quark v9 or higher. You have to go to the Quark website and download the 'QuarkXPress Document Converter' which will convert earlier versions of Quark files to version 9 Quark files which then can be opened in Quark 9 or newer versions of Quark.
In case anyone is interested in that: QuarkXPress Document Converter 1.2 (http://www.quark.com/Support/Downloads/Details.aspx?fid=289)
SHHHHH! Keep that s#1t to yourself! I have everyone thinking that we can't use their old Qxds and it is working!
Better? :rotf:
:woohoo:
If you're at somebody else's computer, might want to look in the trash can before you empty it.
I worked at a small newspaper that was being bought and merged with another in the same town. My boss had written evaluations of all her employees to give to the new company. When both papers were put together, I ended up with her old computer. Guess what I found in the trash can. Really interesting reading.
Quote from: Possum on September 15, 2016, 12:43:06 PMIf you're at somebody else's computer, might want to look in the trash can before you empty it.
I worked at a small newspaper that was being bought and merged with another in the same town. My boss had written evaluations of all her employees to give to the new company. When both papers were put together, I ended up with her old computer. Guess what I found in the trash can. Really interesting reading.
I do peek every now and then. A former coworker always had his trash can full of porn. Web browser history too.
I assume that's why they are a former co-worker.
I work with family, I don't want to know what depravity they are up to.
Quote from: Joe on September 15, 2016, 12:53:27 PMQuote from: Possum on September 15, 2016, 12:43:06 PMIf you're at somebody else's computer, might want to look in the trash can before you empty it.
I worked at a small newspaper that was being bought and merged with another in the same town. My boss had written evaluations of all her employees to give to the new company. When both papers were put together, I ended up with her old computer. Guess what I found in the trash can. Really interesting reading.
I do peek every now and then. A former coworker always had his trash can full of porn. Web browser history too.
IDOIT!
Agreed. If you plan on doing that stuff you should at least learn how to cover your tracks.
Quote from: Joe on September 15, 2016, 01:46:17 PMAgreed. If you plan on doing that stuff you should at least learn how to cover your tracks.
yeah, like digital Kleenex®
Quote from: born2print on September 15, 2016, 01:32:36 PMQuote from: Joe on September 15, 2016, 12:53:27 PMQuote from: Possum on September 15, 2016, 12:43:06 PMIf you're at somebody else's computer, might want to look in the trash can before you empty it.
I worked at a small newspaper that was being bought and merged with another in the same town. My boss had written evaluations of all her employees to give to the new company. When both papers were put together, I ended up with her old computer. Guess what I found in the trash can. Really interesting reading.
I do peek every now and then. A former coworker always had his trash can full of porn. Web browser history too.
IDOIT!
You do it too? Or Idiot?
:lmao:
DAMNIT! I noticed that after I typed it and thot, nah, no one will notice...
wrong again born!
Some guy worked late one night by himself and spent the time using my computer instead of working. I could tell somebody had messed with it the next morning, so I checked the browser. It's amazing how people don't know how or don't bother to delete their browsing history.
It's more they don't know it exists. Like when I told the boss all your contacts are backed up in the cloud and he got all pissed and explained how that's not possible and it's illegal. Then I blew his mind with the reality that they can track you at any time with the GPS in his phone. He went from pissed about the lack of privacy to "well I don't do anything illegal" in seconds... Then back again when I started calling out all the little illegal things he does on a daily basis.
Yeah, It's fine to let the government rape your rights as long as it's someone else's name on that list. The thing is, when you end up on the list who will be left to fight for you?
We use to have someone here who would browse the internet on the Color copier RIP
I told her she shouldn't use the internet from there.
She said she wasn't, Easy to disprove from the browsing history :rolleyes:
I didn't say anything, the RIP got a virus-sheesh some people are not very bright
Quote from: Joe on September 15, 2016, 10:41:54 AMQuote from: Joe on September 15, 2016, 08:33:05 AMAnd Quark?
Quote from: Farabomb on September 15, 2016, 08:40:35 AMis dead.
How I wish that were true. Last night I had to pull an old job off of tape from May 2004. It was a Quark job. Guess what? You can't open Quark documents below version 9 in any version of Quark v9 or higher. You have to go to the Quark website and download the 'QuarkXPress Document Converter' which will convert earlier versions of Quark files to version 9 Quark files which then can be opened in Quark 9 or newer versions of Quark.
In case anyone is interested in that: QuarkXPress Document Converter 1.2 (http://www.quark.com/Support/Downloads/Details.aspx?fid=289)
I'll pass
I went and delivered my message to the students last Friday. It was pretty sweet. And we are doomed... so many clueless little faces, trying to understand me. I need to retire...
The computer lab at SOU, probably 30 or so students, each using a big iMac. I spoke for a few minutes but instead of a lecture, decided to go with more of a clinic format. The Mac I used was hooked to a projector, so they could follow along.
I hit a lot of big topics and showed them how we want files to come to us, along with what we DON'T want. I beat the "text in Photoshop" horse until it lay a dead, smoldering heap of furry pixels on the floor. The prof tried to get me to show them some fancy tricks but I told them to look up sparkles and cloning on eewtube. I was there to teach print production, not the Photoshop filter gallery. LOL
Kudos on giving it the old college try. Probably should have killed the prof in front of them to start with. That might have gotten their attention. :rotf:
The beginning of our day in prepress starts with a sacrifice. <beheads professor>
Yup, sounds about right.
Fancy tricks = nothing printable. That prof probably didn't hear a word you said, and will go on to keep teaching everything in Photoshop. Whooosh (overhead).
Good Job Ear! I'm sure at least one will do it the right way!
If only 1 makes good files it was worth it :laugh:
Quote from: Tracy on March 22, 2017, 12:01:16 PMGood Job Ear! I'm sure at least one will do it the right way!
If only 1 makes good files it was worth it :laugh:
You are sure? Really? :rotf:
I am! :wink:
:hello: Tracy
Quote from: born2print on March 22, 2017, 12:16:47 PMI am! :wink:
:hello: Tracy
Well I am sure too. Sure that no one will do them right. :tongue: I might have become jaded over the years. :sarcasm:
Quote from: Joe on March 22, 2017, 12:23:35 PMQuote from: born2print on March 22, 2017, 12:16:47 PMI am! :wink:
:hello: Tracy
Well I am sure too. Sure that no one will do them right. :tongue: I might have become jaded over the years. :sarcasm:
You are sure? Really? :rotf:
:lmao:
Not anymore. You talked me out of it! :drunk3:
Well crap. I wasn't done arguing though!
:banana:
...and I hate to report it but the site seems intermittently slow again?
One post takes a minute to go, the next is instant.
I haven't done anything to it so...
It is Google's fault
It is Adobe's fault
It is Quark's fault
It is DCS's fault
Pick one.
OK, gotcha!
gnubler's fault.
Who?
What is a gnubler?
haha...
Gotta be him! :rotf: :rotf:
no doubt.
I thought she was moonlighting as the orange squirrel in the Voya commercials.
Side job maybe?
Quote from: Possum on September 20, 2016, 12:43:57 PMSome guy worked late one night by himself and spent the time using my computer instead of working. I could tell somebody had messed with it the next morning, so I checked the browser. It's amazing how people don't know how or don't bother to delete their browsing history.
We had 5 people on our 3rd shift a few years back get busted for the same thing, when things got slow they would come into our production room and make themselves at home on our prepress computers (lots of pron, youtube etc) and never clean out the histories in the browsers, that is how our IT nazis tracked and busted them, it was smdh laughable.
Some people at a newspaper where I worked were hired for a couple of evenings to sell subs over the phone. They used the ad reps' desks to work. One rep called me over the next morning to show me the browser history - it was full of foot fetish sites.
Oh, and welcome back, Empty Words.
:shocked:
http://www.newser.com/story/240192/campus-to-hold-funeral-for-beloved-squirrel.html
I'm just glad you didn't try to blame Trump like everyone else in the world.
Not to say he isn't an incompetent shithead but enough already. Even the people that voted for him don't like him.
Quote from: born2print on March 23, 2017, 11:15:21 AM:shocked:
http://www.newser.com/story/240192/campus-to-hold-funeral-for-beloved-squirrel.html
It is no coincidence that DCS now lives in Houston. RIP gnubler. I'm sure if he had to die he would want it to be at the hands of DCS.
Just can't picture Gnubler hanging around a university with all those boneheads who think everything's okay as long as they do it in Adobe. Maybe the coffin making brought on a psychotic break.