How do you guys set up multi level dies? I have one here from a big firm and it's about as clear as mud. There are 4 different spot colors for embossing but no mention of height. How do you guys do it?
4 different colors all for the same embossing die?
I have one in right now that's 2 different items Die cut and Spot UV
I need a 4-up die 2 of each, I put the 1-ups in the workflow
and create a 4-up pdf then I separate out the dies in illy.
I think there is a better way, but this is the way I do it because our Die company
needs illy eps CS1
I was told by who should not be questioned that it must be all black for the guys doing the finishing. This makes no sense but I don't setup embossing dies. For me it would make sense having 4 different colors representing the 4 different levels. I mean, that makes sense to me.
There is almost no printing on this job, most of it is finishing. We have a 4 level emboss, spot UV and a foil element. With my logic the file has a foil channel, spot UV channel, 4 different emboss channels and our 4c elements. Boss wants a black emboss, separate file for foil and separate file for UV.
You'd think one 10 color file would work for everyone. As long as the colors are named correctly, it should be pretty obvious (shit, I figured it out from the mess I got) and it's 2016. If you don't have people in perp that can't separate channels maybe you should be looking for better vendors.
Our embossing vendor likes it all black too.
but sounds like your going to need 4 different embossing dies?
I just change my final die output file to black in pitstop for the embossing foiling dies
a lot of vendors are behind the times
I finally don't have to deal with hand drawn envelope dies anymore :banana:
I actually have the natives so I just tweak them in there. The boss insists I need just one file in all black and that's what he got. I also sent one showing the different levels in different colors to help.
I know all about behind the times, Jesus passed us 2 years ago and I think I saw a T-Rex last friday. I still don't understand how a print vendor doesn't have the ability to adjust files.
I don't get it either
Quote from: Farabomb on October 03, 2016, 10:14:03 AMHow do you guys set up multi level dies? I have one here from a big firm and it's about as clear as mud. There are 4 different spot colors for embossing but no mention of height. How do you guys do it?
The height of multi-level embossing dies are usually defined as screens and solids of either Black or a spot colour named Emboss. The height is lower with lower screens eg: low emboss height @ 10% and maximum emboss height at 100% solid. The good die-makers can also use monochrome Photoshop files, but most of them prefer vector.
Ok, that makes sense and I can do that. At least with that you can tell the different heights. I just used emboss 1-4 spot colors to show it.
The boss is still insisting that we need a black and just black file, not showing any of the differences. I gave them my colored file as well just in case.
I think what happens is way, way back when the boss started he heard that files must be black and assumes that nothing ever changes so that must be it. Might explain why he still calls proofs matchprints, color keys, sherpas, creos and epsons. I mean he's been in for 30 years and nothing in printing has changed in 30 years, right?
Quote from: Farabomb on October 03, 2016, 11:58:30 AMI was told by who should not be questioned that it must be all black for the guys doing the finishing. This makes no sense but I don't setup embossing dies. For me it would make sense having 4 different colors representing the 4 different levels. I mean, that makes sense to me.
There is almost no printing on this job, most of it is finishing. We have a 4 level emboss, spot UV and a foil element. With my logic the file has a foil channel, spot UV channel, 4 different emboss channels and our 4c elements. Boss wants a black emboss, separate file for foil and separate file for UV.
You'd think one 10 color file would work for everyone. As long as the colors are named correctly, it should be pretty obvious (shit, I figured it out from the mess I got) and it's 2016. If you don't have people in perp that can't separate channels maybe you should be looking for better vendors.
So if I were setting this up in Illy, I would have a 4c art layer on the bottom, with layers above like emboss (use 4 screens to show the emboss levels as I described before), a layer for the spot UV set to overprint, foil layer also set to overprint and at the top the dieline layer with the dieline (if needed) set to overprint. The emboss die makers will need a file with dieline (needed for positioning) + multi-level emboss. The foil stamping and the foil die-makers will need a separate file too, once again with dieline + foil. Depending on how you apply the spot UV coating, you may need a separate file for that too, in order to make a cyrel blanket.
I have a 10 color PDF file with emboss 1-4, spot UV, foil and the 4c elements. Normally we are doing the finishing at 4 different places to save a penny because gas and travel is free. This time I believe it's all done in one place. I've seen their work and they know what they are doing. In theory I can send the 10 file and they would have all of that is needed in one file. If it was 4 different places I'd end up sending them just the separation they are handling as well as the 10 color file. Ever since the crappy vendor we use fucked up a job because they didn't call when they had questions and get easily confused, having too much information was deemed to be the problem by the boss I was blamed because someone was too stupid to 1: operate a computer and 2: too stupid to email or call.
This question is more for someone that has hands on or at least very good knowledge of the process. On a multi level emboss die, Is it only one level then the stepped elements are added by hand? Or does the machine do it all at once like a milling operation? I mean the process to me should be where the machine makes all the levels. Is there a limit to levels? We are asking for 4 but I don't see 4 levels on the sample. 3 at the most. The boss is convinced it's one level then hand carved. Maybe in the year he's stuck at ('82) but today I'd think it's a bit more advanced.
It's my belief that they take our multiple files and make 1 multi-level die, then strike the paper once.
To make 3 or 4 dies and run 3-4 passes doesn't make sense (the paper would wear out, registration, cost, etc...)
I assume it's single pass. What I was talking about was the building of the die. I would think in this day and age of computer in your pocket they would be using a CNC machine to make the die. Put in a chunk of brass, run the program, bam finished multi level die. The boss says they make one level then hand etch all the differing heights. I can't see how you can do that in the age of 3d printers in your basement. I'm aware that hobby 3d printers are a bit shit and the quality is questionable. I'm also aware BMW uses 3d printers that use metal like titanium and inconel to produce parts. I mean if every reality TV build show has a 6 axis CNC I think that if you're an embossing place you'd have one or at least job it out to someone that does.
But we are so far beyond the curve here I'm waiting a few years so we can call ourselves artisanal.
I think they are created with some kind of chemical that washes off/burns off?
I guess it helps when we see these things work!!
OH wait that's the way a foil die is created, get back to us and let us know would you!! :laugh:
The thing is even of I'm right and it's milled out of a block I'll never be told that I was correct. Foil I can understand. I've etched PCBs at home before so I expect it to be not unlike that.
here's a link with some vids showing the creation process for some of these dies.
http://www.metalmagic.com/#welcome
After looking at that I can see where It's both. If it's all fancy then I can see where you need the engraver's skill. This isn't like that. It's basic forms, basically line art that lends itself to CNC machining. I really think it's a combination of ignorant sales staff and designers that may not take the substrate into account when designing it.
I definitely wouldn't mind working at that place tough. There's like more than one person in a department, shipping doesn't look like a bomb hit it (though reusing the same shot for the ending of the vid makes me think they cleaned it just for that). Is that what a real shop looks like?
Very Kool, I think I would like that job also!
We u
Quote from: david on October 17, 2016, 08:13:51 AMhere's a link with some vids showing the creation process for some of these dies.
http://www.metalmagic.com/#welcome
We use them from time to time. Normal Multi level emboss we send vector as different colors. Sculpted embossing we let the die maker handle it.
I used to work for a diemaker and the way we did it was with four images. First level had all the levels, second had the next three deepest, third had the two deepest, and finally the deepest level on it's own. So, the metal was imaged and etched four seperate times, getting deeper with each etch.
aha that kinda makes sense!
How do they get the image on there, and is it removed chemically?
Bluekivi, how did you want your files from the customer though? Did you have a imaging department to create what you needed? The guys I deal with can barley open a zip file, I'm serious. One place refused to accept a ziped file, refused to even attempt to open it. Having to teach them how to log onto a FTP is a day I've been trying hard to forget.
They paint the surface with a light sensitive coating, expose it with the film, develop it to wash away the appropriate area, etch and repeat..... I was the guy who created the film (yes, old school film.....) as multi-level usually. Never done it digitally. If you are able to make film positives, just set them up as explained above or ask your diemaker what he needs to do it. The place we use now, still images with film but use an imagesetter now instead of a camera or vacuum frames. So, I guess if I had to do it now, I would just give them pdfs of solid black with the method described in my previous post.
Thanks for the info, I think that would be fun!
yeah, I'm a goofball :laugh:
Our emboss diemaker can accept digital files instead of film now, but they are pretty well ahead of the curve when it comes to digital. I can't believe there are still emboss diemakers that still need film to etch with. I don't think there's a place within 100 miles of here that still outputs film!
:cane:
Best we can do is an epson on clear material, it isn't as good as film for sure, so luckily our vendors all take PDF of .ai files.
#nofilmhere
we can do film here, we use it for etch dies and silkscreens.