We've been an HP Indigo exclusive shop for years, now they're looking to either add another non-HP machine or replace the aging 5000 altogether.
Right now it's down to the Canon imagePRESS C7010VP or a Ricoh C901 GAE. I went out with the rest of the Dept to look at the Canon earlier this week, at one of their demo facilities. I had hoped it would be a Real shop so I could get some honest opinions, but oh well. Nice lookin' hardware, I won't go on & on about it - I'm mostly curious if anybody here runs one. I see delooch has/had the 6000 model & loves it, I'm interested to see how it handles VDP jobs though. The Canon guys were oddly evasive about that aspect. I asked outright if they had a preferred VDP package & they really don't endorse one in particular, only insisting it would "handle all of the common formats." We've been tied to HP's proprietary software, although I've used a demo of FusionPro and thought it was passable, especially for the price.
I haven't seen the Ricoh firsthand & may not. My Mgr is going out to look at one next week, although he seems to think it's off the table already. (The first time he went to their demo center, that model was down & not running. Great way to sell hardware eh?)
Any firsthand impressions would be welcome!
we just ordered a Ricoh C901, it's not here yet.
Make sure the RIP it comes with supports the .vps format for VDP jobs. That's how I output all my VDP jobs (I use FusionPro and print to a KonicaMinolta).
FusionPro is very buggy on the Mac, just FYI.
The only experience I've had with Ricoh was bad. Pretty sure it was lack of knowledge on the operator's part but if you can't get a center spread together without a big ass white line in it then it's not a production machine.
we have the Firey A1100 server connected to it with the VDP/Graphic arts package. In my opinion, Firey VDP is worthless & cumbersome. I could never get a tech to show me it working effectively. I mostly use InD for VDP, it handles the simple VDP jobs we do get.
production color on the Imagepress has never been an issue, and the RIP is pretty much trouble-free. i dont have many transparency/flattening issues like i did on the old CLC5000.. (cant remember the RIP on that beast, though it was a Fiery.
we saw the 7000 demo'd before we bought the 6000 - (went with the 6000 due to pricing) - theyre impressive, registration is on, color stays fairly consistent. fast & accurate machines..
since we have this Oce Varioprint that supports NO formats, we output all vdp stuff to postscript, distill, and print from acrobat to it. I imagine the workflow will be similar, the Ricoh is coming with a Fiery but that scares me.
We decided the bundled Fiery on the KM wasn't robust enough so got a standalone Creo RIP. Glad we did.
I used Command Workstation on the Fiery we had on our Xerox. It does handle VDP but it's clunky and only accepts PDFs so I had to bust up big jobs into smaller files (good luck trying to process & print a 2,000 page PDF)
Quote from: gnubler on August 25, 2011, 02:23:13 PMWe decided the bundled Fiery on the KM wasn't robust enough so got a standalone Creo RIP. Glad we did.
I used Command Workstation on the Fiery we had on our Xerox. It does handle VDP but it's clunky and only accepts PDFs so I had to bust up big jobs into smaller files (good luck trying to process & print a 2,000 page PDF)
I regularly print 50,000+ page pdfs to our Oce, but from a pretty robust windows box. Forget it on the macs though, they aint happy with that at all. The driver for the Oce blowz on the mac anyway.
I think we actually may have gone with the Creo rip for the Ricoh.
we went and looked at the Canon about a month ago. Nice machine, lots of color controls. We have the Fiery with the CWS on the Xerox 700, if we go with the Canon, we'll probably do the Creo Rip for the same reason gnub stated.
I was only sending from the Mac to the Fiery. It got pokey at times.
that's what we do, and pokey isn't the word I would use. down right mole-asses.
We found out the hard way about the variable workflow on the Fiery with the CWS, it really got us pissed at one point. It takes friggen' forever to rip these PDFs in, so it shoots your estimate out the window when the job shoulda been done today, and it's still running tonight.
We found out it's best to combine all the master with the variable stuff so it just prints and doesn't try to combine the two on the fly. And of course, the salesman won't tell you this info before hand.
But what's the point of doing variable if you have to have a complete file?
right now most of our big variable work is hybrid - print shells litho and feed them through the Oce for imprinting black, this will change with the Ricoh, so we'll find out just how slow it will be, and just how bad Xmpie mangles the art by flattening it. Can't wait.
Wow, great info all - thanks! I think the Creo RIP is a given, since they want to increase the VDP work coming through. You can't skimp on power when it comes to that stuff, at least they realize that much. I know one feature of the Canon they brought up was the ability to start printing say the first 500 records of a 10,000 record job, and so on so it doesn't tie up the machine waiting for the whole dataset to process.
QuoteFusionPro is very buggy on the Mac, just FYI.
Buggy, like how? I'm used to buggy with the HP software so hopefully it won't piss me off too badly. What else is out there? XMPie , Printshop Mail, Darwin. All pretty expensive last I looked.
yeah, again, CWS and the Fiery SUCK at processing VDP
my work around is storing a "master" on the RIP, then feeding it the imprint data on a separate job. processes a zillion times faster. not ideal, but works for our VDP jobs.
Quote from: Slappy on August 25, 2011, 03:09:56 PMWow, great info all - thanks! I think the Creo RIP is a given, since they want to increase the VDP work coming through. You can't skimp on power when it comes to that stuff, at least they realize that much. I know one feature of the Canon they brought up was the ability to start printing say the first 500 records of a 10,000 record job, and so on so it doesn't tie up the machine waiting for the whole dataset to process.
QuoteFusionPro is very buggy on the Mac, just FYI.
Buggy, like how? I'm used to buggy with the HP software so hopefully it won't piss me off too badly. What else is out there? XMPie , Printshop Mail, Darwin. All pretty expensive last I looked.
On the Creo it's called "Gallop". Starts printing the job while processing the rest.
I think Digicorn and I discussed the bugginess in the Fusion Pro thread we had going. I don't use it on Windows because all my software is on the Mac right now.
By 'buggy' I mean it frequently spontaneously quits, windows & pallettes flash off and on, and frequent spinning beachball action. I'm using Acrobat 9 Pro with FP 7.1.
I also don't love that accomplishing certain tasks requires editing Javascript, but Printable's forums are very helpful. We run a lot of NCR numbering jobs through our copier and I have to mess around w/ the code for it to spit out the same number 2/3/4 times for precollated NCR.
let me know if you decide to sell your HP5000
Quote from: tpatterson on August 25, 2011, 12:38:54 PMwe just ordered a Ricoh C901, it's not here yet.
What's your ETA? I'd be very interested to hear about setup, calibrations, etc. I think my Boss might be going to look at the Ricoh this week, maybe I'll tag along. He said last week that a Heidelberg guy called him directly to "talk up" the Ricoh but he didn't understand why. I clued him in to the "partnership" but unless the hardware is substantially better or at least comparable to the Canon, no amount of fantastic back-end will sway my opinion.
Quote from: Slappy on August 29, 2011, 10:46:11 AMQuote from: tpatterson on August 25, 2011, 12:38:54 PMwe just ordered a Ricoh C901, it's not here yet.
What's your ETA? I'd be very interested to hear about setup, calibrations, etc. I think my Boss might be going to look at the Ricoh this week, maybe I'll tag along. He said last week that a Heidelberg guy called him directly to "talk up" the Ricoh but he didn't understand why. I clued him in to the "partnership" but unless the hardware is substantially better or at least comparable to the Canon, no amount of fantastic back-end will sway my opinion.
ETA is there's tape on the floor where it goes, so "soon" - they signed the papers. I won't know anything about calibration or operation and the operator is a grumpy old biker who thinks I'm a POS (and everyone else who is not a "pressman") so he won't be sharing. I'll get to learn only what I need to prep VDP stuff for it.
Heh, I hear ya. I'd be interested to hear about the training since I'm That Guy too and I've seen nothing about how Canon does any of it yet. Hell, I never did establish what we'd even be using for VDP production.
I think the Ricoh is completely out of the running at this point, for whatever reason.
It appears the Powers the Be inked a deal with Canon this week, so we'll be sportin' that 7010VP by mid-October!
Now, to carve out a space for it... :shocked:
Quote from: Slappy on September 16, 2011, 02:28:49 PM...Now, to carve out a space for it... :shocked:
Our Ricoh got here yesterday, we've squeezed it in and it's running. Well, people are being trained on it at least. It's the Graphic Arts edition!! Whatever that means, lol.
Quote from: t-pat on August 29, 2011, 02:04:54 PMthe operator is a grumpy old biker
I thought DPs would be run from the prepress benches, pretty much. Getting a GOB to run a new digital press sounds like an oil/water mix. :undecided:
Quote from: frailer on September 16, 2011, 02:46:58 PMQuote from: t-pat on August 29, 2011, 02:04:54 PMthe operator is a grumpy old biker
I thought DPs would be run from the prepress benches, pretty much. Getting a GOB to run a new digital press sounds like an oil/water mix. :undecided:
No way I have time to do what I do prepping lost cat flyers and fully variable jobs for Big 3 automakers, AND throw paper.
oh and he's already running the 2 x700's and the OCE varioprint Ultra, so what's one more?
aw hell, that's easy....
I can do that with both hands tied behind your back...
down hill, with the wind
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Quote from: t-pat on September 16, 2011, 03:20:01 PMoh and he's already running the 2 x700's and the OCE varioprint Ultra, so what's one more?
Fair enough. Maybe I'll change my tune when we get one.
Quote from: frailer on September 16, 2011, 08:24:29 PMQuote from: t-pat on September 16, 2011, 03:20:01 PMoh and he's already running the 2 x700's and the OCE varioprint Ultra, so what's one more?
Fair enough. Maybe I'll change my tune when we get one.
He was a prepress operator when we had *one*. Once they got another one he went out to that room full time and I was hired in prep.
Sounds like - fun. Our Indigo Op is already bitching that he won't be able to run both machines & do trimming, folding, packaging & shipping all by himself. And in all honesty, I agree with him. They keep hiring for bindery bodies for the offset work work but we can't get any help getting our shit out the door, which is usually on a much tighter schedule that conventional anyway.
Whatever the case, It'll be interesting no doubt. I'll be sure to document the install as if moves forward.
FWIW our current digital workflow is this:
Prepres preps all files (litho, digital, and hybrid litho/digital) and makes final pdfs for the operator to output. (2 full time operators plus one full time designer that can do most file prep as well)
1 digital press operator running 2 x700s, 1 OCE varioprint, and 1 Ricoh whatever-it-is-called. He takes final pdfs and outputs to devices. Basic imposition done on rips for devices for static jobs, otherwise imposed by XMPie or Preps.
Stuff goes to bindery from there.
You get yours install yet? Ours just arrived today, still in the shrink wrap so Monday/Tuesday they'll get us up & running I suppose. I still have no new Macs though, and no software to get VDP jobs over to this machine. Guess we'll scramble & cross that bridge when we come to it eh?
Quote from: Slappy on October 21, 2011, 01:02:11 PMYou get yours install yet? Ours just arrived today, still in the shrink wrap so Monday/Tuesday they'll get us up & running I suppose. I still have no new Macs though, and no software to get VDP jobs over to this machine. Guess we'll scramble & cross that bridge when we come to it eh?
ours is up and running, no news is good news. I don't operate it. Seems like it has a decent frontend. We had some funky shite with a job with transparency and had to do a workaround, and sending a non-4 color achievable spot as process did not work as well as sending it as spot and letting the operator tweak it. Xmpie output does not always do the best job on stuff like this due to it's black box postscript output.
Well, we're all installed & running - I think. Got one live job that was supposed to go on the Indigo but the saledouche wants to be able to scream "FIRST!!!111" and have his job run on the Canon instead. Damned shame, I can't stand the look of anything I've seen come off of it so far honestly. For all of its faults, the Indigo is a MUCH better device. Oh well.
I have discovered that I have no way to send VDP files over, not even basic mailing pieces. The only software I've got that generates PPML is the HP plug-in, and it's not compatible with the Canon, so they'll be investing in something eventually.
My plan is to pre-impose anything I can in Preps & just throw 12x18 or 13x19 PDFs at this monster. We can't get it to publish Hot Folders out to the network that the Macs can see, so having custom impo folders I can drop PDFs into is also out for now. That's a limitation of the Creo running Windows XP, I'm hunting around for a PC MacLAN installer since I think that's the only/easiest way to resolve it.
not shocked that the Indigo looks better, costs a lot more I'm sure.
fwiw our VDP workflow is output to .ps from xmpie, then distill "press quality" and pray...
I know I am bringing this back from the dead. But was curious on how the C7010VP is working for you.
I was wondering because we have a C7000VP ImagePress. We have had it for about 1.5 years and have around 3.2 million clicks on it. Before we had a Xerox Docucolor 8000 with a Docucolor 250 to supplement.
Well the Xerox service was terrible so we made the company-wide transition to Canon.
It hasn't been much better with Canon. Now I can say that when something goes wrong, the tech actually knows what the problem is and fixes it. Xerox techs were scratching their heads most of the time. But the problem with Canon is that our machine develops a problem, every single dayyyyyyyy. Whether it is because of faulty corona wires, bad transfer voltage, broken fuser gears or if it is just a pesky error code. Today we already have a call in because of a back-up issue. It usually holds registration surprisingly well. Not today.
We have a Fiery Rip and we do most of our pdf imposing in CWS and it works well. We have discovered transparency/flattening issues when PRINTING to the Fiery. So I usually print to a .ps , distill, and import the new pdf into CWS and work that way. Haven't had any issues using that technique.
Oh and we use InDesign for VDP, but most of our variable work isn't TOO crazy.
I don't think we've been running our 7010VDP long enough (or hard enough) to say if it's going to be a good addition or not, unfortunately. They brought the thing in, have done NO marketing or promotions that I can see to have the Sales Team really go out & feed it, and we're still sending more jobs to the Indigo 5000 than the Canon. It was intimated at one point from Mgmt that they wanted every job possible going to the Canon, even reprints that originally ran on the Indigo. But the CSRs and Salespeople have pretty much ignored that mandate and I can't say I blame them. The quality on the Indigo is much better, and for clients who have come to expect it, arbitrarily switching them to Canon output is going to have jobs rejected & possibly business walking away.
Sorry, not the kind of input you came looking for, I know! What we have run on the machine I can say has been fairly painless. I've done a few mailings with Postnet barcodes, some booklets using the inline stitcher & face trimmer and the run-of-the-mill crap like postcards, biz cards, etc. It's fine for what it is, I'd like to push it & do some heavier VDP work but I have doubts about anybody in this place being able to sell that work.
I really can't blame you guys. If we had an Indigo we would have the Canon on the back burner as well haha.
As far as running Indigo reprints off the Canon... :wtf:
Management makes only the best decisions. :)