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General Category => General Prepress => Topic started by: Farabomb on April 07, 2016, 07:49:20 AM

Title: Web & Freeware fonts
Post by: Farabomb on April 07, 2016, 07:49:20 AM
New thread added. started by Farabomb. Starts below this post...
Title: Re: Web & Freeware fonts
Post by: Farabomb on April 07, 2016, 08:22:53 AM
If anyone is awake I have a hateful file that keeps failing in trapping. I'm trying to isolate the issue but it's not playing nice. It isn't a complex design so I really don't know why it's failing. I've ran it through distiller, resaved one of the links (can't do the other as it's a newer version of illy) reoutput the PDF, it just doesn't like me. Looking at the design I can't run it without trapping but it does go through with trapping off.

Title: Re: Web & Freeware fonts
Post by: Farabomb on April 07, 2016, 08:25:56 AM
Removed link


Title: Re: Web & Freeware fonts
Post by: Joe on April 07, 2016, 10:09:21 AM
The problem with both files is Roboto font which is a Google web font. Kodak actually has a bulletin out on it because it is not suitable for printing. The fix is to get the font and outline Roboto.

Here is the .eps saved as an Illy 8 file and the PDF with Roboto outlined.

[removed links]
Title: Re: Web & Freeware fonts
Post by: Joe on April 07, 2016, 10:24:30 AM
Just to add to this issue...Web fonts and freeware fonts are becoming major problems in the print world. We have added this disclaimer to our Insite front page. The first paragraph is straight from Kodak support:

Quote
WHAT ABOUT FONTS? Freeware and/or web fonts can be used for titling and small runs of text. These fonts have been designed to be used freely across the internet by web browsers on desktop computers, laptops and mobile devices. However, these fonts have rendering issues when used for print production work at high resolutions, as they were designed for use on the web or for lower quality output devices.

The use of these fonts is not recommended for print production. If they are used you may incur additional labor costs for us to deal with any problems we might find. If there are any issues through the production of your job caused by the use of these fonts, we the Printing Company, will not be responsible for the final printing of your job where the text from these fonts may appear. These issues include missing text, reflowed text and any other text anomalies deemed to be caused by the use of freeware and/or web fonts.

Title: Re: Web & Freeware fonts
Post by: Farabomb on April 07, 2016, 10:51:13 AM
Thank you Joe!

Now when they decide what file to use, the natives have different verbage than the initial files sent, I can easily fix it rather than beat my head against it.

I'd tell the designer about the font issue but I might as well save my keystrokes.
Title: Re: Web & Freeware fonts
Post by: Farabomb on April 07, 2016, 10:58:18 AM
Question, is there any way to flag crappy fonts like that in a preflight?
Title: Re: Web & Freeware fonts
Post by: Joe on April 07, 2016, 11:04:25 AM
Quote from: Farabomb date=1460041098 link=msg=278907

Question, is there any way to flag crappy fonts like that in a preflight?


I think you could create an Acrobat or Pitstop preflight to check for Roboto or any other problem fonts. The problem is that the list is getting quite extensive. I wish there were a  preflight that could check the license and if either outlining or embedding weren't licensed it would warn or fail. As far as I know that isn't possible although there is an action in Pitstop to check the font license but for some reason it did not flag roboto in your file.

Attached it the Kodak bulletin over this issue.
Title: Re: Web & Freeware fonts
Post by: Farabomb on April 07, 2016, 11:15:09 AM
That's wonderful info to have, Thanks again Joe.

If I come up against a trouble file again that will one of the first things I check.
Title: Re: Web & Freeware fonts
Post by: Joe on April 07, 2016, 11:27:55 AM
Yeah you really have to be vigilant about freeware/web fonts. We had a job recently using the font Amatica on their front cover at 101 pt. size. Amatic is a web font. It looked OK in their PDF. It looked OK in Insite. It looked OK on our 600 dpi VPS. At output it dropped part of a "Y" and customer caught it on the printed books. On further examination we noticed the outline Prinergy creates for the trap did not fit the text. It was oddly shaped and underneath the actual text. Out prepress operator probably should have caught that and it was also visible in Insite and the customer approved it. We ended up giving them a credit though. I sent the file to Kodak and the above disclaimer we added to Insite is what they said and they also pointed out to us you could see the part of the "Y" missing in their original file if you zoomed past 600% in the PDF. Also creating the VPS at 800 dpi also showed the issue so we have changed our processing templates to output all VPS's at 800 dpi now.

And this problem is only going to get worse as more and more designers download more and more free fonts from the web. DOOMED!!!
Title: Re: Web & Freeware fonts
Post by: Ear on April 07, 2016, 12:21:47 PM
I run an Enfocus Certified Preflight on all jobs, which produces a report. I then view the report, which shows a comprehensive list of everything used in the document... image res, font info, etc... It is super useful in tracking bad things down. And it is a live report, meaning you can select a font from the Navigator and it will show you where it is used. Found a bad font just yesterday using it.

Attached is a screenshot of one of the font report pages.

... and I will be happy to extract and share my preflight action, if anyone wants to take her for a spin.
Title: Re: Web & Freeware fonts
Post by: Joe on April 07, 2016, 12:51:12 PM
I'm going to move the posts on this subject to a new thread so it isn't buried in Off Topic Topics. Once I get that done please zip that up and post it in the new thread.

Post it here now please Ear.
Title: Re: Web & Freeware fonts
Post by: Ear on April 07, 2016, 12:58:55 PM
Here is the zipped preflight. I am using it with an older PitStop, but it should work.

Let me know if anyone needs help implementing this. It can be modified and customized, once loaded. It is a good starting point, if nothing else.

Once loaded, go to Certified PDF and select the newly loaded preflight profile. It will open Navigator, once it is finished. You can navigate there or, at the bottom of the Navigator panel, you can select "show report", at which point it will produce the magic report.
Title: Re: Web & Freeware fonts
Post by: Joe on April 07, 2016, 01:12:44 PM
Pitstop automatically upgrades the preflight to the Pitstop version being used.

Also I've added the check font license action at the end of this preflight to check for:

[attachimg=1 width=400]
Title: Re: Web & Freeware fonts
Post by: Ear on April 07, 2016, 01:19:19 PM
Nice. I will have to update my profile to include the license.

This was my 3rd incarnation of the profile but I haven't modified it in a few years. Glad to have input on other things to check for. Time for a v4.

The other cool thing is, it pretty much stops designers from arguing about bad art or fonts. I will straight up send them the report and show them where to view the problem, if they try to backtalk me. The report looks official and it forces them to straighten up.
Title: Re: Web & Freeware fonts
Post by: Tracy on April 07, 2016, 06:21:12 PM
Was that preflight from an actual job?
if so that is too many fonts!!!!
Title: Re: Web & Freeware fonts
Post by: Joe on April 07, 2016, 06:28:37 PM
Quote from: Tracy date=1460067672 link=msg=278963

Was that preflight from an actual job?
if so that is too many fonts!!!!


Probably a web job. I've seen a lot more than that. You should have seen the fonts used in a 1,500+ page phonebook I just did a few weeks ago.
Title: Re: Web & Freeware fonts
Post by: Farabomb on April 08, 2016, 07:52:36 AM
You still print phonebooks?

Title: Re: Web & Freeware fonts
Post by: Joe on April 08, 2016, 08:41:38 AM
Amazingly yes. I thought they were dead a few years back but we do a LOT of them. More than ever. I can't remember the last time I used a phonebook to look something up though. But someone must still be using them.
Title: Re: Web & Freeware fonts
Post by: Farabomb on April 08, 2016, 08:52:24 AM
Well, there are places where cell service is spotty and not everywhere gets internet so I can see them still being used. We used to get them where I live but I don't believe I've seen one in 2 years.
Title: Re: Web & Freeware fonts
Post by: Slappy on April 12, 2016, 09:50:11 PM
We still get a local version of one here. Couldn't tell you which brand, it goes right from the curb to the recycling bin, unlike my idiot neighbor who leaves his in the gutter as some kind of experiment to see how long it takes to disintegrate.
Title: Re: Web & Freeware fonts
Post by: StudioMonkey on April 13, 2016, 05:14:32 AM
We get a couple of phonebooks delivered every year.  Last time I used em was to prop up the sofa when the leg fell off.
Title: Re: Web & Freeware fonts
Post by: Farabomb on April 13, 2016, 09:23:02 AM
Apparently Sussex county where I live has only 2% of NJ population. The phonebook is more of a pamphlet.

And only 10 last names.
Title: Re: Web & Freeware fonts
Post by: Possum on April 13, 2016, 11:29:49 AM
Back to topic: I've read that some freeware fonts have malicious code in the files. There are so many sites that allow just anybody to upload fonts, you don't know where they came from.

I've also had trouble with fonts customers have asked me to use that have just atrocious spacing problems.
Title: Re: Web & Freeware fonts
Post by: Tracy on April 13, 2016, 01:04:32 PM
I downloaded a font ONCE, never again
caused a problem.
Title: Re: Web & Freeware fonts
Post by: Farabomb on April 13, 2016, 02:26:35 PM
I'm having issues with this font now. The designer that I don't believe knows that they are going at all as they have a blank page in the indy doc because they haven't figured out how to make spreads and the PDFs I get sent have that page in there as they don't know how to export a range...

Anyway they have an EPS with the font in it and it drops out on export on my computer. Why EPS? even adobe has given up on that format. The designer was told the font is a issues and all should be outlined but I doubt they know what that means. I'm going to have to take a look at ear's preflight and adapt it for us.
Title: Re: Web & Freeware fonts
Post by: Joe on April 13, 2016, 03:04:49 PM
Open the EPS in Illy and outline that font.
Title: Re: Web & Freeware fonts
Post by: Farabomb on April 13, 2016, 03:49:16 PM
I would but illy told me to fuck off and get CC. I got my digital guy to save it as an pdf.

I was on the phone with their "prepress" department while I was fixing it and he had the wonderful advice of just distilling it. I told him in no uncertain terms that that is the LAST thing you should be doing. Post script is dead and that will destroy any transparency and could cause more problems than it solves.

This explains a lot of the files they "fixed" before.
Title: Re: Web & Freeware fonts
Post by: Joe on April 13, 2016, 04:37:03 PM
Once it is an EPS is is already postscript so it already ruined.
Title: Re: Web & Freeware fonts
Post by: Ear on April 13, 2016, 05:18:00 PM
... can't embed fonts in an EPS. They are even more useless than .ps
Title: Re: Web & Freeware fonts
Post by: Joe on April 13, 2016, 05:22:42 PM
You can outline them though...but yes, both formats are dead and useless.
Title: Re: Web & Freeware fonts
Post by: Ear on April 13, 2016, 05:29:13 PM
At least you can embed fonts in a postscript. But yes, dead... although I still will save crappy Microshaft PDFs to .ps and re-distill to PDF, if they give me a fit. Only in a pinch and I'm not proud of it. But never a .eps.
Title: Re: Web & Freeware fonts
Post by: Joe on April 13, 2016, 05:40:29 PM
We still have one customer using Quark. Every page they save out of Quark as EPS and distill it to a PDF. I've begged them to stop doing that but because it solved a problem 15 years ago they won't change.




:blowup:
Title: Re: Web & Freeware fonts
Post by: Ear on April 13, 2016, 05:46:56 PM
Wow. Even back in the days of PS, we never took it from EPS to PDF.
Title: Re: Web & Freeware fonts
Post by: Joe on April 13, 2016, 06:04:00 PM
No sane person would.
Title: Re: Web & Freeware fonts
Post by: Ear on April 13, 2016, 06:07:23 PM
It's like buying a brand new truck and yanking the electronics to put a 4 barrel carb on it. EPS is the design version of Points & Condenser... they were never good.
Title: Re: Web & Freeware fonts
Post by: Farabomb on April 14, 2016, 08:15:51 AM
I think there are a shocking amount of people still using ideas formed in the dark ages of digital stripping.
Title: Re: Web & Freeware fonts
Post by: Joe on April 14, 2016, 09:26:45 AM
Their favorite saying, "That's the way we've always done it". If everyone did that in every thing we do in life we'd still be taking our clothes down to the creek to wash them and walking out to the outhouse in the rain at 4:00 am. Many people are scared of progress.
Title: Re: Web & Freeware fonts
Post by: Ear on April 14, 2016, 05:14:28 PM
... way we've always done it... I hate that line. I actually say "well, you've always done it wrong".

Or "it's the exact same as last year". ORLY? Then why does Date Modified show as yesterday? After a few minutes of this, you learn that "it's the same as last year but my computer crashed, so I got a new one and upgraded the software a couple months ago. We just made a few changes to the new file but it really is the same as the last one"

:shocked: :sad: :drunk3:

:strangle:
Title: Re: Web & Freeware fonts
Post by: Joe on April 14, 2016, 05:15:46 PM
Quote from: Ear date=1460668468 link=msg=279197

... way we've always done it... I hate that line. I actually say "well, you've always done it wrong".

Or "it's the exact same as last year". ORLY? Then why does Date Modified show as yesterday? After a few minutes of this, you learn that "it's the same as last year but my computer crashed, so I got a new one and upgraded the software a couple months ago. We just made a few changes to the new file but it really is the same as the last one"

:shocked: :sad: :drunk3:

:strangle:


And it sucked last year too!
Title: Re: Web & Freeware fonts
Post by: Ear on April 14, 2016, 05:19:30 PM
 ... oh I remember now, that's the file that kept me from getting my 1 year sober pin, last year. :( You're right, it IS the same!
Title: Re: Web & Freeware fonts
Post by: StudioMonkey on April 15, 2016, 05:44:22 AM
'It's the same as last time apart from some amends' 

Yeah and I spent all day last time fixing it and now I got to start from scratch and fix it again because I can't figure out where the amends are to do them in my version and anyway I might miss something and then it really will be my fault and  . . . and . . . and . . .   :rage: 
Title: Re: Web & Freeware fonts
Post by: Farabomb on April 18, 2016, 07:24:33 AM
No kidding, I almost was expected to to that from 150 miles away this weekend. After waking up at 6, racing all day then hanging out till midnight.

Yeah, not gonna happen.

"it's a new file, there are changes" No there weren't, you just fixed what I already fixed. The issue is you only fixed one tiny part of this clusterfuck.
Title: Re: Web & Freeware fonts
Post by: Fontaholic on April 18, 2016, 03:46:14 PM
I will have to make a note of this web fonts malarkey...

And seriously -- .EPS is considered a "dead" format for Illustrator??  That's what I've always used, as they give me fewer problems than .AI files (but then again, I'm working on ancient computers here...)!

Cheers,
John the Fontaholic :drunk3:
Title: Re: Web & Freeware fonts
Post by: TatyanaJones111 on August 20, 2018, 09:12:47 AM
Quote from: Farabomb link=msg=278899 date=1460031773

If anyone is awake I have a hateful file that keeps failing in trapping. I'm trying to isolate the issue but it's not playing nice. It isn't a complex design so I really don't know why it's failing. I've ran it through distiller, resaved one of the links (can't do the other as it's a newer version of illy) reoutput the PDF, it just doesn't like me more info crazy bulk coupans code (https://getveriuni.com/). Looking at the design I can't run it without trapping but it does go through with trapping off.
Title: Re: Web & Freeware fonts
Post by: Joe on August 20, 2018, 09:45:22 AM
Original quote:

Quote from: Farabomb link=msg=278899 date=1460031773

If anyone is awake I have a hateful file that keeps failing in trapping. I'm trying to isolate the issue but it's not playing nice. It isn't a complex design so I really don't know why it's failing. I've ran it through distiller, resaved one of the links (can't do the other as it's a newer version of illy) reoutput the PDF, it just doesn't like me. Looking at the design I can't run it without trapping but it does go through with trapping off.



Your quote with a spam link.

Quote from: TatyanaJones111 link=msg=302055 date=1534770767

Quote from: Farabomb link=msg=278899 date=1460031773

If anyone is awake I have a hateful file that keeps failing in trapping. I'm trying to isolate the issue but it's not playing nice. It isn't a complex design so I really don't know why it's failing. I've ran it through distiller, resaved one of the links (can't do the other as it's a newer version of illy) reoutput the PDF, it just doesn't like me more info crazy bulk coupans code (https://getveriuni.com/). Looking at the design I can't run it without trapping but it does go through with trapping off.



Equals bye bye...
Title: Re: Web & Freeware fonts
Post by: Farabomb on August 22, 2018, 01:50:52 PM
I rarely use hyperlinks in any of my posts and that bullshit drew my eye immediately.

Banhammer.