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Applications => Adobe InDesign => Topic started by: rickself on January 22, 2019, 10:46:22 AM

Title: Transparency ISsue with 4color PSD on top of Spot Color Background
Post by: rickself on January 22, 2019, 10:46:22 AM
Hey all -
We just put in a Ricoh Pro C5200S with a Fiery rip in front. I know, it's a big copy machine. But the colors are OUTSTANDING and the speed is very nice. It takes up to 18 point, which is great for short run folding cartons.
I have an InDesign file that has a layered 4 color PSD image with transparency, laying on top of a Cool Gray 11 background. The image has an ever so slight bounding box around it and I'm not sure what the heck to do. Trying to find help from Fiery support isn't easy to come by and my next step after this is contacting Ricoh.
I'm on Mac Indesign CC 2017, Fiery E24-B. None of this is of much help I guess.
Maybe I need to add the spot color to the PSD file? That's slightly above my knowledge skills!!
Thanks in advance for any direction.
Title: Re: Transparency ISsue with 4color PSD on top of Spot Color Background
Post by: Joe on January 22, 2019, 10:59:10 AM
So ummmm...what is the problem?
Title: Re: Transparency ISsue with 4color PSD on top of Spot Color Background
Post by: rickself on January 22, 2019, 11:10:24 AM
The PSD image has a bounding box transparency issue
Title: Re: Transparency ISsue with 4color PSD on top of Spot Color Background
Post by: Joe on January 22, 2019, 11:14:36 AM
Are you printing from Indy straight to the fiery or making a PDF and sending that over? I would try exporting a PDF/X-1A PDF and try to print that.
Title: Re: Transparency ISsue with 4color PSD on top of Spot Color Background
Post by: rickself on January 22, 2019, 11:30:06 AM
I've tried both. Saving as a pdf and printing direct to the Fiery Held box.
PDF X1A got rid of the bounding box but now I have a knockout where the 4 color image should be
Title: Re: Transparency ISsue with 4color PSD on top of Spot Color Background
Post by: Tracy on January 22, 2019, 11:32:32 AM
might need to flatten the psd
Are you using Command Workstation?
Title: Re: Transparency ISsue with 4color PSD on top of Spot Color Background
Post by: rickself on January 22, 2019, 11:36:00 AM
Yes, Command Workstation 6.3.0.
I can Merge the layers and retain the transparency. It looks like if I flatten, it puts a white background behind.
Title: Re: Transparency ISsue with 4color PSD on top of Spot Color Background
Post by: DCurry on January 22, 2019, 11:48:23 AM
Have you tried converting the spot color to process?
Title: Re: Transparency ISsue with 4color PSD on top of Spot Color Background
Post by: rickself on January 22, 2019, 11:55:21 AM
I have converted to process and it printed pretty good. It still doesn't have the nice flat color in the image bounding box area but is in my terms acceptable. Petco has been pretty adamant that they have other vendors printing 5 color but who knows - they may be going offset, not digital. I'll try to get them to accept the 4 color option.
Thanks all for the help.
Something in the back-40 of my mind was thinking there had been transparency issues when printing PDF's from Indy but maybe that's been resolved. Still, Indy would not be my first choice for agency supplied art.
Title: Re: Transparency ISsue with 4color PSD on top of Spot Color Background
Post by: Kermy812 on January 22, 2019, 12:01:46 PM
I had a pretty similar issue on a different digital press - I basically had to convert the Pantone in the filework to process.
Title: Re: Transparency ISsue with 4color PSD on top of Spot Color Background
Post by: rickself on January 22, 2019, 12:02:24 PM
I still think I should be able to print the spot color plus process on this machine, which is supposedly state of the art. Just didn't know if it was a Fiery issue, Ricoh issue, or Indy issue.
Title: Re: Transparency ISsue with 4color PSD on top of Spot Color Background
Post by: DigiCorn on January 22, 2019, 12:02:49 PM
Sometimes you can delete the offending box in Pitstop. Other times you can rasterize the whole thing in Photoshop.

[edit] and it IS a Fiery issue. Running the same file through a proper RIP will alleviate the issue. If you have that option, maybe you can export a PDF to use.
Title: Re: Transparency ISsue with 4color PSD on top of Spot Color Background
Post by: Tracy on January 22, 2019, 12:08:11 PM
At the Command Workstation window you can see if it is using the "print engine preferred"
you will have to add that to your menu bar to see it.
you can uncheck it and try it.
screenshot
Title: Re: Transparency ISsue with 4color PSD on top of Spot Color Background
Post by: rickself on January 22, 2019, 12:17:11 PM
I see every other option BUT the PDF Print Engine Preferred.
Title: Re: Transparency ISsue with 4color PSD on top of Spot Color Background
Post by: Joe on January 22, 2019, 12:34:56 PM
That is because your company didn't spend the extra $25K for the Adobe PDF Print Engine license...like mine did not either.
Title: Re: Transparency ISsue with 4color PSD on top of Spot Color Background
Post by: rickself on January 22, 2019, 12:38:06 PM
Holy CRAP!
Uh, no we didn't.
At least that would have given the powers that be a good reason for no Christmas bonus last year!!
Title: Re: Transparency ISsue with 4color PSD on top of Spot Color Background
Post by: Tracy on January 22, 2019, 12:39:08 PM
I don't think we paid anything for ours, but it really isn't worth it to me
they need to do some work on that.

Do you see a color difference printing to the Ricoh with spot and process?
Title: Re: Transparency ISsue with 4color PSD on top of Spot Color Background
Post by: DigiCorn on January 22, 2019, 12:39:22 PM
Are you running CWS 5 or CWS 6?
Title: Re: Transparency ISsue with 4color PSD on top of Spot Color Background
Post by: rickself on January 22, 2019, 12:42:10 PM
Quote from: Tracy link=msg=304736 date=1548178748

I don't think we paid anything for ours, but it really isn't worth it to me
they need to do some work on that.

Do you see a color difference printing to the Ricoh with spot and process?

The colors are really, really close. Close enough I think for a big agency to accept. I just hate giving in to compromise.
Title: Re: Transparency ISsue with 4color PSD on top of Spot Color Background
Post by: Tracy on January 22, 2019, 12:43:02 PM
yeah I get it, I don't know how many times I've tried to match a spot on the copiers!
Title: Re: Transparency ISsue with 4color PSD on top of Spot Color Background
Post by: rickself on January 22, 2019, 12:43:29 PM
Quote from: DigiCorn link=msg=304737 date=1548178762

Are you running CWS 5 or CWS 6?
I'm using 6.3.0
Title: Re: Transparency ISsue with 4color PSD on top of Spot Color Background
Post by: Joe on January 22, 2019, 01:05:28 PM
Quote from: Tracy link=msg=304736 date=1548178748

I don't think we paid anything for ours, but it really isn't worth it to me
they need to do some work on that.

Do you see a color difference printing to the Ricoh with spot and process?


If you have it...you paid for it somewhere in the process. ;D
Title: Re: Transparency ISsue with 4color PSD on top of Spot Color Background
Post by: Joe on January 22, 2019, 01:06:21 PM
Quote from: rickself link=msg=304738 date=1548178930

Quote from: Tracy link=msg=304736 date=1548178748

I don't think we paid anything for ours, but it really isn't worth it to me
they need to do some work on that.

Do you see a color difference printing to the Ricoh with spot and process?

The colors are really, really close. Close enough I think for a big agency to accept. I just hate giving in to compromise.


Spot colors, transparency, and a Fiery RIP is a recipe for disaster.
Title: Re: Transparency ISsue with 4color PSD on top of Spot Color Background
Post by: rickself on January 22, 2019, 01:43:28 PM
What do you know, Joe?
Enlighten me, please! Maybe I should try to bypass the Fiery?
Title: Re: Transparency ISsue with 4color PSD on top of Spot Color Background
Post by: Joe on January 22, 2019, 01:51:10 PM
I don't think you can bypass the Fiery if you want to print to that machine. As others have said, convert the spot to process and live with it.

Also have a read here: Transparency & PMS Spot Colors – How to Solve the Conflict for Print (http://blog.imagesmith.com/2017/01/27/transparency-spot-pms-colors-create-problems/)
Title: Re: Transparency ISsue with 4color PSD on top of Spot Color Background
Post by: mc hristel on January 23, 2019, 08:00:34 PM
Spot colors and transparency have never been a good combination. If I remember correctly, back 10-15 years ago when transparency was newer and .ps and by extension .pdf didn't support it, you would always get the dreaded black box (sometimes the white box) where a spot and transparency overlapped. I think because the transparency was always 4 color and the spot was well, a spot color, the RIPs didn't know what to do and handled it badly. The modern RIPs are better at rendering these things now, but apparently Fiery still has some issues.

Still, I don't think I would feed anything with a spot color to a Fiery RIP. Those things are so unpredictable, unless your Ricoh is using spot color toners I'd convert all your spot colors to process before they get anywhere near the Fiery.
Title: Re: Transparency ISsue with 4color PSD on top of Spot Color Background
Post by: swampymarsh on January 24, 2019, 01:25:56 AM
Rather than having a transparent image placed over the vector spot background, you could include all or part of the spot background in Photoshop as a spot colour channel. You of course then need the RIP to process the vector spot and raster spot the same, otherwise you will see an edge and may need to extend the spot background in Photoshop so that it can fully replace the vector spot background object. Yes, likely swapping one problem for another, but worth a try for giggles!
Title: Re: Transparency ISsue with 4color PSD on top of Spot Color Background
Post by: pspdfppdfxhd on January 24, 2019, 07:45:14 AM
Quote from: rickself link=msg=304720 date=1548173424

The PSD image has a bounding box transparency issue



Hmmm, the problem might be the chicken fat in the ingredients.
Title: Re: Transparency ISsue with 4color PSD on top of Spot Color Background
Post by: rickself on January 24, 2019, 08:38:55 AM
Quote from: pspdfppdfxhd link=msg=304786 date=1548333914

Quote from: rickself link=msg=304720 date=1548173424

The PSD image has a bounding box transparency issue



Hmmm, the problem might be the chicken fat in the ingredients.
I like the new life these threads take on when the issue is old hat!
:rotf:
Title: Re: Transparency ISsue with 4color PSD on top of Spot Color Background
Post by: rickself on January 24, 2019, 08:43:01 AM
Quote from: swampymarsh link=msg=304784 date=1548311156

Rather than having a transparent image placed over the vector spot background, you could include all or part of the spot background in Photoshop as a spot colour channel. You of course then need the RIP to process the vector spot and raster spot the same, otherwise you will see an edge and may need to extend the spot background in Photoshop so that it can fully replace the vector spot background object. Yes, likely swapping one problem for another, but worth a try for giggles!
I'm still working on adding a spot background in Photoshop. I also think that's the way to go if the client insists on using InDesign. Illustrator is my main forté. I've tried YouTube for good tutorials but haven't got there yet.
Title: Re: Transparency ISsue with 4color PSD on top of Spot Color Background
Post by: mattbeals on January 24, 2019, 10:22:09 AM
You want the PDF Print Engine, do *NOT* flatten the transparencies. The PDF engine will render the transparencies better/correctly at output. There's a reason to not use a Postscript engine, transparency is pretty much the biggest reason.

Spend the money.
Title: Re: Transparency ISsue with 4color PSD on top of Spot Color Background
Post by: DCurry on January 24, 2019, 11:31:02 AM
Quote from: rickself link=msg=304789 date=1548337381

I'm still working on adding a spot background in Photoshop. I also think that's the way to go if the client insists on using InDesign.


Out of curiosity, if the client built the file the same way but used Illustrator instead of ID, why do you think the results would be different?
Title: Re: Transparency ISsue with 4color PSD on top of Spot Color Background
Post by: Tracy on January 24, 2019, 01:31:57 PM
How do you tell the copier not to flatten?
In Command Workstation?
Title: Re: Transparency ISsue with 4color PSD on top of Spot Color Background
Post by: DigiCorn on January 24, 2019, 01:48:50 PM
Quote from: Tracy link=msg=304804 date=1548354717

How do you tell the copier not to flatten?
In Command Workstation?
I'm kind of curious about this myself
Title: Re: Transparency ISsue with 4color PSD on top of Spot Color Background
Post by: rickself on January 24, 2019, 02:58:07 PM
Quote from: mattbeals link=msg=304792 date=1548343329

You want the PDF Print Engine, do *NOT* flatten the transparencies. The PDF engine will render the transparencies better/correctly at output. There's a reason to not use a Postscript engine, transparency is pretty much the biggest reason.

Spend the money.
Thanks, Matt, oh Guru of PDF. Been a student of yours for some 20 years.
Knowing that transparency is going to give bad results with a PS engine through the Fiery, is it safe to say the workflow of PDF Engine (in the Fiery?), going to the Ricoh PRO C5200 S SHOULD give the end product we're looking for? Does it matter if the file is printed direct from InDesign into the held que of the Command Workstation or are the results better saving as PDF and dropping into the CWS? Or same one as the other?
Title: Re: Transparency ISsue with 4color PSD on top of Spot Color Background
Post by: DCurry on January 24, 2019, 03:04:43 PM
If you print from ID you are flattening.
Title: Re: Transparency ISsue with 4color PSD on top of Spot Color Background
Post by: Joe on January 24, 2019, 03:18:53 PM
Quote from: DCurry link=msg=304814 date=1548360283

If you print from ID you are flattening.


Yep, no two ways about that. Printing = flattening.

Import directly into CWS will keep the transparency but the Fiery withouy APPE will flatten. And most likely not very well. Even with APPE it has to flatten before toner hits paper but APPE does  a much better job than Fiery minus APPE.

But even with APPE, transparency with spot colors can cause issues. I see it often in Prinergy because designers just gotta do shit like this.
Title: Re: Transparency ISsue with 4color PSD on top of Spot Color Background
Post by: rickself on January 24, 2019, 03:24:29 PM
The best choice overall would be to build the PSD file with the spot color. Transparency issues are then out the window.
Title: Re: Transparency ISsue with 4color PSD on top of Spot Color Background
Post by: Joe on January 24, 2019, 03:28:01 PM
Quote from: rickself link=msg=304819 date=1548361469

The best choice overall would be to build the PSD file with the spot color. Transparency issues are then out the window.


The best choice would be to print it as process because printing spot colors is always going to be test on these kinds of devices.
Title: Re: Transparency ISsue with 4color PSD on top of Spot Color Background
Post by: rickself on January 24, 2019, 03:31:04 PM
And to go back to what started this whole brew-haha is that the client supplied me with a 5 color pdf -  4CP plus cool gray 11 background, stating that they have other suppliers that produce the piece without a problem.
Title: Re: Transparency ISsue with 4color PSD on top of Spot Color Background
Post by: david on January 24, 2019, 03:43:22 PM
yep, print it as cmyk, don't tell them, no problem.

I will bet my paycheck that's their workflow.
It's a small bet, no prob!
Title: Re: Transparency ISsue with 4color PSD on top of Spot Color Background
Post by: Joe on January 24, 2019, 04:12:38 PM
Quote from: rickself link=msg=304822 date=1548361864

And to go back to what started this whole brew-haha is that the client supplied me with a 5 color pdf -  4CP plus cool gray 11 background, stating that they have other suppliers that produce the piece without a problem.


Tell me which one is Cool Gray 11 and which one is C=6 M=3 K=73

[attach width=400]19377[/attach]
Title: Re: Transparency ISsue with 4color PSD on top of Spot Color Background
Post by: rickself on January 24, 2019, 04:35:40 PM
 :strangle:
4 color it is.
Title: Re: Transparency ISsue with 4color PSD on top of Spot Color Background
Post by: born2print on January 24, 2019, 04:40:53 PM
Neither. They're both RGB.  :hello:
Title: Re: Transparency ISsue with 4color PSD on top of Spot Color Background
Post by: Joe on January 24, 2019, 04:48:40 PM
Quote from: born2print link=msg=304834 date=1548366053

Neither. They're both RGB.  :hello:


Touché. It isn't my fault you don't have a CMYK+Spot monitor! :tongue:
Title: Re: Transparency ISsue with 4color PSD on top of Spot Color Background
Post by: Joe on January 24, 2019, 04:49:06 PM
Quote from: born2print link=msg=304834 date=1548366053

Neither. They're both RGB.  :hello:


And oh yeah...they look fine on my screen.
Title: Re: Transparency ISsue with 4color PSD on top of Spot Color Background
Post by: born2print on January 24, 2019, 05:05:52 PM
...now that you mention it  :rotf:
Title: Re: Transparency ISsue with 4color PSD on top of Spot Color Background
Post by: mattbeals on February 01, 2019, 10:44:23 AM
Quote from: rickself link=msg=304813 date=1548359887

Quote from: mattbeals link=msg=304792 date=1548343329

You want the PDF Print Engine, do *NOT* flatten the transparencies. The PDF engine will render the transparencies better/correctly at output. There's a reason to not use a Postscript engine, transparency is pretty much the biggest reason.

Spend the money.
Thanks, Matt, oh Guru of PDF. Been a student of yours for some 20 years.
Knowing that transparency is going to give bad results with a PS engine through the Fiery, is it safe to say the workflow of PDF Engine (in the Fiery?), going to the Ricoh PRO C5200 S SHOULD give the end product we're looking for? Does it matter if the file is printed direct from InDesign into the held que of the Command Workstation or are the results better saving as PDF and dropping into the CWS? Or same one as the other?


Keep the Fiery, it's the best you will find, and add the PDF Print Engine. If you are printing though, like Command+P, then the process is flawed from step 1. For the sake of this conversation, "printing" is dead. PDF though, very healthy and thriving.

Print a plain text email, an email. Anything else? Send PDF 1.4 or higher to keep the transparencies. We can talk about the color conversions and output intent later.

Command/Control+P is your mortal enemy. Anyone telling you differently is lying, or uninformed, or selling you something. PDF Print Engine is the way to go.