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Workflows => Enfocus => Topic started by: Lammy on February 01, 2017, 10:35:24 AM

Title: Global Change: Convert to Color Space
Post by: Lammy on February 01, 2017, 10:35:24 AM
When using this global change option for Device CMYK, which profile is it actually using if any. How would I go about changing the profile it uses?
Title: Re: Global Change: Convert to Color Space
Post by: Joe on February 01, 2017, 11:24:38 AM
Pretty sure it uses the color management that is set in your Pitstop preferences. You can change your Pitstop global preferences for color management which isn't ideal or you. can save the global change as an action and add in the 'Override Color Management' action and change it to whatever you want and it will only affect this particular action.

Funny you ask this today as they just covered that this morning in the Pitstop monthly webinar.
Title: Re: Global Change: Convert to Color Space
Post by: Lammy on February 01, 2017, 11:56:36 AM
Do you have a link to a recording of that webinar?

Think I got it. Didn't realize at first the "applied" windows was not just showing the setting of the selected profile.
Title: Re: Global Change: Convert to Color Space
Post by: Joe on February 01, 2017, 12:33:07 PM
They usually don't have the link to the recording for a few days. Andrew usually posts the links when the recording is available.
Title: Re: Global Change: Convert to Color Space
Post by: mattbeals on February 03, 2017, 07:22:17 PM
Global Change uses the PitStop color management preferences.
Title: Re: Global Change: Convert to Color Space
Post by: Slappy on February 08, 2017, 02:24:58 PM
So would the Default Settings be considered horrible? Cause that's what's being used here, much as I think it's wrong.
Title: Re: Global Change: Convert to Color Space
Post by: Joe on February 08, 2017, 02:44:14 PM
I usually keep it off so that way if you run the convert to gray action it will keep text at 100% black. Any of the others will give you a screen somewhere between 85% - 90%. The only issue with that is photos get pretty heavy in the shadows so I usually convert photos using either the prepress default one or the Acrobat one. Those sometimes look a bit washed out though so I usually do a curve or contrast move using Pitstop to change them after converting to gray. I have not found one that works well for everything though. I keep the Pitstop color management tool in the Acrobat toolbar so I can change it quickly.

Just to note that if you are using Acrobat DC on a Mac you can't use those profiles out of the box because they use the Adobe CMM engine which is only 32 bit. You will need to edit them to create new ones and change the CMM engine to 'Little CMS' which is 64-bit for Acrobat DC on the Mac.
Title: Re: Global Change: Convert to Color Space
Post by: frailer on February 11, 2017, 07:07:28 AM
I got caught badly a few months back..did a series of curve adjustments in PitStop, did a Save, but hadn't hit the 'Apply' button in that window. In my (older) version, there's no fuckwit alarm prompt to ask you if you want to 'Apply'. This may have changed. If it hasn't, I think I'll pursue it with ABC once we upgrade.

We're currently living in the Jacobean Period, so to speak, in terms of upgrades. Sorta 16th Century.
Title: Re: Global Change: Convert to Color Space
Post by: Joe on February 11, 2017, 08:58:30 AM
I got caught badly a few months back..did a series of curve adjustments in PitStop, did a Save, but hadn't hit the 'Apply' button in that window. In my (older) version, there's no fuckwit alarm prompt to ask you if you want to 'Apply'. This may have changed. If it hasn't, I think I'll pursue it with ABC once we upgrade.

We're currently living in the Jacobean Period, so to speak, in terms of upgrades. Sorta 16th Century.

It does prompt you if you try to leave that window without hitting Apply.
Title: Re: Global Change: Convert to Color Space
Post by: frailer on February 12, 2017, 10:18:08 PM
Thanks. That's a good hole to have plugged. Arse is still sore from it...

(just realised that's a pretty weird sentence mix there... :-\  )
Title: Re: Global Change: Convert to Color Space
Post by: mattbeals on February 13, 2017, 08:13:11 PM
So would the Default Settings be considered horrible? Cause that's what's being used here, much as I think it's wrong.

Default settings are almost as bad as color management being turned off. In PitStop set the color profiles that you use in Photoshop/InDesign/Illustrator/Acrobat. Whatever you do; don't turn them off.
Title: Re: Global Change: Convert to Color Space
Post by: Slappy on February 13, 2017, 10:09:03 PM
That was my suggestion, which fell on deaf ears because of my favorite phrase:

"That's how we've always done it."  :shoots_self:
Title: Re: Global Change: Convert to Color Space
Post by: Joe on February 13, 2017, 11:11:39 PM
So would the Default Settings be considered horrible? Cause that's what's being used here, much as I think it's wrong.

Default settings are almost as bad as color management being turned off. In PitStop set the color profiles that you use in Photoshop/InDesign/Illustrator/Acrobat. Whatever you do; don't turn them off.

I might agree with that if all we used Pitstop for was converting RGB images to CMYK, But we rarely convert images from one color space to another in Acrobat and we prefer using whichever profile gives the best results when we do convert anything. And if you do convert anything with 100% black text to gray you really are going to get gray instead of black with anything other than having color management turned off. Using default settings or any color management profiles for everything is not a good thing. The operator should always use whatever achieves the best result for any given subject matter.
Title: Re: Global Change: Convert to Color Space
Post by: mattbeals on February 14, 2017, 12:56:00 AM
So would the Default Settings be considered horrible? Cause that's what's being used here, much as I think it's wrong.

Default settings are almost as bad as color management being turned off. In PitStop set the color profiles that you use in Photoshop/InDesign/Illustrator/Acrobat. Whatever you do; don't turn them off.

I might agree with that if all we used Pitstop for was converting RGB images to CMYK, But we rarely convert images from one color space to another in Acrobat and we prefer using whichever profile gives the best results when we do convert anything. And if you do convert anything with 100% black text to gray you really are going to get gray instead of black with anything other than having color management turned off. Using default settings or any color management profiles for everything is not a good thing. The operator should always use whatever achieves the best result for any given subject matter.

 Best result no matter what the intended output intent is? You should use the right profile, which may or may not be a canned profile. Another benefit of using a good profile from you data is consistent separations. Meaning the separations are done in a consistent way with a consistent dot gain/curves, G/UCR, white point, TAC, etc. Consistency is the key.

Black type converting to gray is a strange one. There is little reason to convert K of CMYK or separation black to device gray unless your black & white printer has a problem interpreting K of CMYK or separation black as a black click. And even then, the problem is in PitStop and its color conversions. Here it would be better to use the remap color function to remap the channel to device gray rather than to convert.

In this case callas still does it better even though they use the same LittleCMS engine. It's not the engine, it's the logic running it.
Title: Re: Global Change: Convert to Color Space
Post by: Farabomb on February 14, 2017, 08:17:06 AM
Logic has no business in a print shop.
Title: Re: Global Change: Convert to Color Space
Post by: Joe on February 14, 2017, 09:23:21 AM
So would the Default Settings be considered horrible? Cause that's what's being used here, much as I think it's wrong.

Default settings are almost as bad as color management being turned off. In PitStop set the color profiles that you use in Photoshop/InDesign/Illustrator/Acrobat. Whatever you do; don't turn them off.

I might agree with that if all we used Pitstop for was converting RGB images to CMYK, But we rarely convert images from one color space to another in Acrobat and we prefer using whichever profile gives the best results when we do convert anything. And if you do convert anything with 100% black text to gray you really are going to get gray instead of black with anything other than having color management turned off. Using default settings or any color management profiles for everything is not a good thing. The operator should always use whatever achieves the best result for any given subject matter.

 Best result no matter what the intended output intent is? You should use the right profile, which may or may not be a canned profile. Another benefit of using a good profile from you data is consistent separations. Meaning the separations are done in a consistent way with a consistent dot gain/curves, G/UCR, white point, TAC, etc. Consistency is the key.

Black type converting to gray is a strange one. There is little reason to convert K of CMYK or separation black to device gray unless your black & white printer has a problem interpreting K of CMYK or separation black as a black click. And even then, the problem is in PitStop and its color conversions. Here it would be better to use the remap color function to remap the channel to device gray rather than to convert.

In this case callas still does it better even though they use the same LittleCMS engine. It's not the engine, it's the logic running it.

The text I am referring too is usually 100% K but just happens to be on a page that needs to be converted to B&W. The 100% K turns to around 85% - 90% black unless you turn color management off.

As far the output devices we don't use any kind of proofers. We only output one-bits tiffs for the platesetters and we have adjustment curves and dot gain curves for each press. But we still do not do any kind of manual conversion between color spaces for images as we let Prinergy do all of that during refine. The conversions we do in Pitstop are usually just color to grayscale and truthfully none of the built in profiles do a good job at that. And having CM turned off doesn't do a great job converting images to gray either. Hence we get close with whatever profile looks best and then adjust it from there with curves or brightness/contrast with Pitstop.
Title: Re: Global Change: Convert to Color Space
Post by: mattbeals on February 14, 2017, 01:18:58 PM
The problem of the black type going to 85% is because of the max black in the ICC profile you are using. If you are using an ICC profile with a 85% max black you're probably using SWOP v2; the extracted black channel from that profile; one of the dot gain profiles; or one of the gamma profiles.

Best to make your own 0% dot gain gray profile with a max K of 100, then save that profile out of Photoshop and use that for your gray profile. But you shouldn't have to tinker with it for a black click. Understandably with some RIP's/engines you do need to do this. That's where the remap comes in handy; it's not a color conversion that happens in the traditional way through the CMS.
Title: Re: Global Change: Convert to Color Space
Post by: DigiCorn on February 14, 2017, 01:36:40 PM
Once you go black, you'll never go back
Title: Re: Global Change: Convert to Color Space
Post by: swampymarsh on February 24, 2017, 06:27:03 AM
Quote
The conversions we do in Pitstop are usually just color to grayscale and truthfully none of the built in profiles do a good job at that. And having CM turned off doesn't do a great job converting images to gray either. Hence we get close with whatever profile looks best and then adjust it from there with curves or brightness/contrast with Pitstop.

I’m pretty sure that one could build the action list to turn CM off and convert everything that is not an image, then turn CM back on and convert only the images… However remapping is often the better approach if you don’t wish to affect values.

The March 2015 webex workshop covered grayscale conversions/mapping in depth:
https://www.linkedin.com/groups/6801080/6801080-6006090175053119488
Title: Re: Global Change: Convert to Color Space
Post by: Joe on February 24, 2017, 09:20:42 AM
Quote
The conversions we do in Pitstop are usually just color to grayscale and truthfully none of the built in profiles do a good job at that. And having CM turned off doesn't do a great job converting images to gray either. Hence we get close with whatever profile looks best and then adjust it from there with curves or brightness/contrast with Pitstop.

I’m pretty sure that one could build the action list to turn CM off and convert everything that is not an image, then turn CM back on and convert only the images… However remapping is often the better approach if you don’t wish to affect values.

The March 2015 webex workshop covered grayscale conversions/mapping in depth:
https://www.linkedin.com/groups/6801080/6801080-6006090175053119488

Yes I was at the webex. Just haven't gotten around to trying those things yet.